Melanie Little,
Embracing Spirituality and Authenticity in Healing and Recovery
In this episode, Melanie Little and Melanie Suzanne Wilson explore the vital role of spirituality in healing, how cycles of addiction can be broken, and the importance of authentic connection both online and offline. They share insights from their personal journeys and professional work, emphasizing compassion, humility, and community.
Key Topics
The significance of spirituality beyond organized religion and its role in healing
How acknowledging a spiritual side can break cycles of addiction and stuckness
The influence of social and cultural factors on addiction and mental health
The importance of authenticity and vulnerability in personal growth and online presence
Balancing sharing personal stories while respecting boundaries and privacy
The biopsychosocial model of addiction: risk factors and resilience
Practical ways to connect with community and foster genuine relationships
The impact of social media and societal norms on body image and self-esteem
Recognizing motivations behind habits—fear, escape, or genuine health
The power of honesty and raw honesty in recovery and self-awareness
Timestamps
00:00 - Introduction and overview of spirituality in healing
02:07 - Defining spirituality beyond religion and its connection to healing
04:20 - How modern society seeks comfort and the discomfort of uncertainty
05:46 - The importance of sitting in discomfort for growth
07:17 - Spirituality as a resource in breaking cycles of stuckness
08:33 - Russell Brand’s perspective on trust and trusting something greater
09:32 - Connecting with nature as a simple act of spirituality
10:47 - The concept of unfudging oneself and community connection
11:11 - The role of spirituality in recovery programs like 12-step
12:53 - Addressing wounds caused by religious legalism and the safe space in recovery
13:47 - The importance of humility and authenticity in spiritual practices
15:11 - Navigating personal beliefs respectfully in public
Transcript 2
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)
Melanie Little is back on the podcast again, and we are going to start by looking at spirituality and how that fits in with what we have been talking about.
Melanie Little (00:11)
Yeah, so I'm excited about this topic. This is something that I have found to be so important in the healing process, you know, and so as I learn about human beings, just the human condition and
psychology and then the neurobiology that goes into all the stuff that I do when I work with clients. What I have noticed is that there is a large spiritual component in the healing process. And you know, unfortunately, where a client is maybe deficient in that area, they get very stuck. So I'm glad we're talking about this.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:54)
They get stuck if they are not thinking about spirituality, if they are not applying spirituality to what they are journeying out of. And how do we need to really define spirituality as well here because
Melanie Little (01:09)
Set here.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:10)
I have recorded with some people on the show who are outright religious and some who are yogis. And then there are people in the world who are just.
believing that something is out there, or maybe all they cling to right now is gratitude journals, but what is spirituality for you?
Melanie Little (01:29)
Well, I believe that we are physical creatures and we all have a spiritual side, meaning that there's something within us that is not maybe physically tangible but works within us, and you know, it also, I believe that spirituality is a connection.
And I don't want to maybe I don't want to define it beyond that, except I do want to make the distinction that I am not talking about religion. Because religion is an institution that's created by man. We've put so much structure around it. And I think in our modern world, we've also
tried to make religion fit us so much that it's kind of lost its connection with or its
For a lot of people, this is not absolute, but for a lot of people, I think there's a spirituality missing in the religion that's practised. Because there's a striving for, you know, what's comfortable, what feels like it fits, and you lose that. So
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:44)
Is driving for what's comfortable.
In what way?
Melanie Little (02:46)
Well, so when we look at religious institutions, I think over time it's evolved. And because in modern society we have, and through the industrialisation of you know all of our I think all of our infrastructure in all of the institutions that kind of operate in our modern world.
We try to be efficient, we try to be dualistic, and we try to be comfortable. And sometimes in what I see as spirituality, much involves being in a space of uncertainty. That's not comfortable.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:37)
Like that so much, the uncertainty, because I have I grew up with traditional religion, and then I explored a version of spirituality that can provide a framework for anyone, regardless of what they believe in, because that framework was given to me when I discovered yoga.
And whether I look at those or anything in between, I would say that what people often skip these days is the sitting in discomfort, and the right and the practices that can guide us will not bend to the instant gratification culture.
That we're all in now.
Melanie Little (04:28)
Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes, so we are speaking about the same thing.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:33)
We
are, we are. And I like being very, very sensitive on this show because, firstly, I am making a point of not saying what I believe, but also being very compassionate to whatever someone else believes. Because to remind the audience at this point, your specialty is dealing with addictions or also anyone breaking cycles.
Because we get stuck in any sort of cycles. Is that how to put
Melanie Little (05:00)
Yes.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:01)
it?
Melanie Little (05:01)
Yes. Yes. And you know, with the spirituality piece, the way that I see it in that work is that we need to be able to tap into something beyond our human limits in the healing process. You know, when you've exhausted everything that is tangible or within your purview.
That's what the stuckness is. And it's not really stuck, but if you don't know or if you don't acknowledge that you have a spiritual side, that's it, you know? And so the resources are limited.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:41)
They are. I am reminded of the book Russell Brand wrote years ago. Do you remember that one? The book about addiction?
Melanie Little (05:50)
Did not read that book, but I would love to hear your thoughts about that.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:55)
Okay. I read that, I think, because I was just following Russell Brand at the time and I wasn't heavily addicted to anything, but the language of it spoke to me because it was simplified, and sometimes that's what we need. He translated the twelve steps into Russell talk. You can imagine what that's like.
Melanie Little (06:18)
Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:19)
Yeah.
And a couple of things stood out to me. He looked at the spirituality side as simply trusting something greater than yourself because something bigger than me could surely do more than what I can do. And it was simplified that much. I let go. That was powerful for me because I definitely grew up with
Only the word religion more than spirituality, I'd say that the word spirituality didn't come up so much when I was young. And there was essentially a set of rules. And I knew that there were rules that I couldn't possibly fit, no matter what I did, because of my circumstances. So that disconnected me from exploring anything beyond myself. But when he put it that simply, it wasn't
Are you going to fit all of the traditions you grew up with? It's just, are you going to hand this to something bigger than yourself? And he did broaden it to include the natural world. I look beyond only the natural world, but it gave grace to those who can only emotionally handle looking at that much. You look out where I am; there are some beaches. You look out from the beach, and it's bigger than you.
It's that simple. Look out at the water that is bigger than you. And in some areas, you might be near a whole lot of mountains. Same thing. Over here, we have the Blue Mountains you look at in some spots over there. You know, this is bigger than me. And things are forming. You know, the world is doing its thing regardless of what you do. So, you know that something is at play.
And the other thing that stood out to me from that book is I will I will good place this and use a different word because I don't want to have to click the explicit button on this episode just for one word. But so he had a line: can you unfudge yourself? Have you tried unfudging yourself? How did that go so far? And
we know what that really means. I maybe I'll do an explicit version, but no, I don't think that's needed. And that that spoke to okay, you need other people as well as you need something beyond people, perhaps.
Melanie Little (08:52)
Yes. Yes. We are all there's a connection. Yes. And so connecting with other people is that's bigger than us. And I love that he talks about connecting with something big or just recognising that there's something bigger than you.
Because in the twelve-step recovery programs, that's a huge part of that program is accepting that the world doesn't revolve here, which I mean in addiction, people tend to be very self-centred because you're always looking for that immediate gratification we're talking about, you know, when you're in active addiction. So going into a recovery program, a 12-step recovery program, is that's one of the hardest hurdles. And there's a paradox in it, in that, you know, recognising your powerlessness is where you draw on power.
To overcome the addiction. And that's the beginning of the spiritual piece of the 12-step program. And it very much points you right away in the direction of recognising that there is a power greater than yourself, you know. And then the language throughout the 12-step programs is a God of your understanding. And I think it's important. I recognise the importance of that in the work that I do because there are so many people that have.
have been wounded, you know, that have spiritual wounds or maybe wounded through religion. And like you were speaking about, you know, having all of the rules, you know, the legalism in the church.
Has hurt a lot of people in a way that they have maybe moved away from anything that looks or sounds like religion. And so those 12-step programs are built to be a safe place to explore what it looks like for you.
You know, what does your spirituality look like for you? What is your higher power? How do you perceive that? And how can you relate to that? So yeah, that's one of the really genius elements of the 12-step programs. And I try to really echo that in the work that I do because I want people to be- I want to meet people where they are and be that safe person and just offer them a place to explore, you know, that part of themselves. And I do need to say, I know you said you're not going to share what your belief is. When I write, I do write from a place of Christianity because that is the way that I have been brought up, and that's where, you know, that's my belief. But also I think that very often Christians get it wrong. And so that's a big claim that I make in the writing that I do because it's important I think for humility to be a b a big part of how Christians and anybody, you know, this is true for anybody, but but Christians walking humbly in their beliefs so that they can be safe for people to come and explore that side of themselves and be be approachable and not come across as legalistic or righteous or you know those things that scare people away. I think that's super important.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:44)
Absolutely. We need a way to not be so legalistic, and that's the best way to put it. I applaud you for embracing your beliefs and sharing it. Where I take an approach here, and look, this is an interesting journey for me talking publicly about my beliefs because I've had the podcast for what's not even a year yet. It'll be a year in August. And I just feel so sensitive that I want everybody to feel welcome. But also I am very aware of how I comment on religion because I'll say this much. And this is a positive thing. In recent months, I have encountered, and to some extent, there's someone in mind I can think of from the past year or two, but also other people in recent months. I've encountered the most kind, compassionate, welcoming people who happen to be renowned religious leaders. And I have so much sensitivity to that. I can tell you that one of the people I trust the most in the whole world happens to be in great religious leadership. But I also know that I'm talking on a podcast where anyone can listen to it. And I don't want to- I don't want to ever have a spiritual practice, be it within that space, or also I went to a yoga studio 600 times, and it was so private. I would get on that mat, and this was just me being a person at a time when I was doing still locally some public things. I respect the privacy of a spiritual practice. However, it's nice to go ahead and applaud that spiritual communities on both sides are getting it right at the moment. It's incredible. There's
Melanie Little (14:46)
Mm-hmm.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:47)
So much mending going on at the moment because I told you that I grew up with very much a set of rules and a mould to fit, but I don't think it's like that anymore. And this is very empowering because yes, when people are getting out of any cycle, we need that. We need community of any sort. But also when we are bringing our recovery to something greater than ourselves, it's crucial to not do that alone because we become our own echo chamber.
Melanie Little (15:23)
Yes. Very much so. Yeah, there's a saying, and I hope I don't get it wrong. I think it's something like the most dangerous place for a recovering addict or for an addict to be is in their head. You know, so when we sit and we're by ourselves and we're not connected with other people, and we're not having conversations and saying out loud what's going on is dangerous. Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:48)
Is it? So are our own thoughts our I was going to say our enemies, but are our own thoughts holding us back?
Melanie Little (15:57)
Sometimes I mean I just I think that that what that saying says to me is and and I did get it wrong I'm sure but by the way, I think that when we are just sitting with our thoughts and what's going on on in our heads, it can take a certain shape and it it it's just us, it's just our voice, it's not being spoken and it's not being challenged and it's not connecting with anybody outside of ourselves.
So we're limiting ourselves to, like you said, our own little echo chamber. And yeah, it's a dangerous place to be. You want to be challenged. You want to be able to connect with other people who have experience beyond what your experience is.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:42)
Absolutely.
And we need to approach it with raw honesty. And that requires a safe space. Let's face it, I approached my spiritual practice through the lens of, okay, I do things in front of people, but my spirituality is going to be separate from that, or at least have a separate aspect. But I would say at this point in history, most people have an element of feeling public in some way.
Because we're all on the internet. We all everybody has an Instagram or whatever they use. And of course, there's even- I've heard there's a sense of secrecy or privacy around those who explore the 12 steps. I've never done that, but whatever it is, would you agree that we need a space where we can be totally honest and raw? And we're not
This is not insta-worthy transformation here, right?
Melanie Little (17:41)
Right. Yes. Yes. Honesty, truth, authenticity- it's so important, and it is I think it is at risk of, you know, we're at risk of losing that, and we're feeling some of that because I'm gonna tell you, people that I talk to, the people that come into my office, they don't trust anything. Nothing is real, you know? And I think that that's one of the negative sides of our Instagram world.
There is, I think, there are benefits. But it's interesting how I have a love-hate relationship with social media. Because yes, it is a it's something that we all have this public exposure, like you're saying. It's part of our world today; in fact, as a writer, I've discovered that I am expected, in order to be published or to be represented by a publishing agent, I am expected to have a pretty significant platform. And I spent about a year and a half completely offline because of all of the, you know, like, you know, there's so many reasons. That's why I stopped myself. There's so many reasons, but
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:05)
It's okay.
Melanie Little (19:06)
Just the attention, you know, that I was losing my focus, and I felt my anxiety getting worse. And just moment by moment, you know, I go from sad to happy to how cute. Then, you know, you just your emotions are all over the place. And I was having a difficult time, you know, being focused and attuned. So I thought, you know what, I'm gonna get off the online platforms. And then I, you know, wrote this manuscript that I'm trying to get published and found out I need to have a significant presence. So there's a love-hate relationship there. But kind of bringing it back to your point, I think that there is a way for us to be online and to be courageous in being authentic and showing our true selves and being just being in truth. And it's not gonna be necessarily the popular stance right away, but I think we can evolve to that.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:10)
What's not the popular estates getting authentic?
Melanie Little (20:13)
Being authentic. I thought that might sound very biased. It probably is very biased. But
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:23)
Why?
Melanie Little (20:25)
because I in in creating content and putting content online and having a pretty academic body of work that I'm that I'm you know, really trying to promote
I'm thoughtful in what I create and how I try to, you know, I I believe in being authentic, I believe in being in truth, and I really put a lot of thought into everything I put out. And then I watch people do things that seem very superficial or lacking substance, or like you're saying, like it's it's inauthentic and it is very much liked, you know, and so it is tempting, you know, there's a temptation out there to kind of gravitate towards that sort of thing, but I absolutely believe that we need to present ourselves exactly, you know, and that's there's there's a self-acceptance in that and being willing to present myself exactly who I for exactly who I am, say what I believe, what I, you know, what's going on in this head, and let it land however it's gonna land.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:31)
Bring that debate to you or that balance, as much as we don't like that word these days. And this will land somewhere with you because you are in the profession that you do. A few months ago, I was in serious grief. Something had changed beyond my control. And I wanted to respect the privacy of everybody involved.
And because of that, I wasn't mentioning that online, but also I was trying to maintain the positivity of the podcast. I was trying to show the world I'm still taking a step forward after another, despite whatever is going on. In a way, I was trying to fake it till I made it with my energy.
To the point where I fainted when I was recording an episode. However, yeah, yeah.
Melanie Little (22:26)
My goodness.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:29)
I was recording with a Texan philanthropist, and I've told this story, I think, on one other episode. My MacBook was on a shelf, and I liked how the angle was better. I didn't have a table at the height that I wanted, so it was on this shelf. So I'm standing for the whole thing. And then I was feeling a little bit off, but I hadn't fainted in what 10 years, whatever. So I just kept talking. I thought I'll just get through this. And there's a video somewhere on Riverside where I'm just going pale white and passing out. I felt embarrassed. But that goes to show we can't. I know that something was happening for me emotionally. But we can't fake everything forever, but we do need to. In my situation, I knew it was right to respect people's privacy and also to show optimism. It's great we're exploring the question of how we present ourselves online. Around that time, before or after that, a friend told me that I present such a great life online.
But then I'm saying that I'm not feeling right. Yes, because I had to really ask, do you want the world to see all of this? No, I can't. I literally, even if I wanted to show everybody the ugliest of the uglies, I couldn't.
With that in mind, we're also creating a brand. You have your personal brand for your writing, and I have the brand for my podcast. We all been conditioned in this culture to all behave like a business and a brand, which means present yourself a certain way. But we still need to be authentic because we are connecting. I mean the authenticity in the podcast is part of the secret sauce that we're having a real conversation. We're not holding much back. It means whoever is listening is going to see themselves in something that we say. The authenticity is needed. Do you think there's a bit of a fine line? We have to present ourselves in the best light, but still be real.
Melanie Little (24:42)
absolutely. Yeah. Because you know
I think there's power in our testimony. And so sharing those vulnerable things about our story and our overcoming, that's important. But also it's, you know, Brené Brown talks a lot about this. Being too vulnerable, your vulnerability out there too much, can also be a negative, you know. And it's important for us to have that balance and to discern and be selective about what it is that we do share and who we're sharing it with. You know, and that kind of goes back to, you know, just basic boundaries as well. Yeah. I mean, I share a lot of my story in my writing. It's just part of my style of writing, and I have a lot of story. But I've learned that there are elements, there are pieces of the story that fit in certain places at certain times, depending on what it is that I'm, you know, what it is that I'm intending to bring. Like, for example, here, what is it that I'm trying to speak about, and who am I connecting with? You know, it would be weird for me to come here and just tell all of my, you know, all of my dirty laundry. So I mean, I think that we have to be, you know, we have to respect ourselves and respect the people around us and exercise, like you're saying, some restraint about how much of that detail we share, for sure. I do also think though, that being vulnerable, and for example, coming on here, I think I told you one of the first things I told you was, let me just warn you, I have anxiety. Because my words, I have to really stop my I could sit here, and I could say a whole bunch of words that aren't going to get my point across. So I have to stop myself, and I have to really think about, okay, what is it that I want to say? Because my anxiety can take me all over the place. That's just something about me that I know that I shared with you, and that I'm I think that just by saying that, probably somebody out there is going, yeah, girl, that's me, you know.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:05)
Are you saying that
your anxiety leads you to go on your tangents?
Melanie Little (27:11)
Yes.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:12)
Interesting. Interesting. I tend to find sometimes on the podcast every tangent elaborated on the theme someone was exploring, but I know a tangent can get pretty random. That's fair. Is it anxiety or is it also the nervousness of recording on a podcast?
Melanie Little (27:33)
Probably two that also. Yes. Yeah. For sure.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:36)
That's part of why I like to keep it so relaxed. And we can talk about podcasting for a second. Remind me, is this your first podcast? It is. I
Melanie Little (27:47)
Yes, it is. Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:49)
I've shaped this just how I want it to be. I don't know how every major podcast host actually creates and records. I don't know if some people do three hours of recording and then chop it back. Who knows?
I actually I can tell you my first podcast I ever appeared on, start of last year. It was it came out as about half an hour of episode at the end of it. But someone just found me online, and I thought, why not? Sure. So I show up, log in, and next thing I know, someone is asking about how I lost weight. And I was just
Melanie Little (28:29)
Goodness.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:30)
Yeah, I thought, sure, okay, well it was all about my healthy eating. Okay. I mean, I was a community speaker, and I thought, sure, I look back at it, and it actually came out okay. I just talked for half an hour. I can talk, okay. And it showed me that's how easy it is. But I get guests on the show, and this will be a reassurance for a moment for anyone who's thinking of being on this show or another one.
It's a lot more simple. I get some people asking which questions will I ask. My main boxes I try to tick are let people know what you do professionally, let people know what your personal story is that helped you to grow. For you, it's the addiction and something everybody can learn. If we get those three things.
Then we get familiar with the person who's talking, and we learn something from it. It can be that simple, but
Melanie Little (29:28)
That's great.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:28)
It's that easy. And the cool thing about having this being so conversational, I can tell you, look, for so many, many, many years, I was doing seven-minute presentations, and that's all great. And we've all had those.
We've all seen the formality of presenting at work, wherever, or even if you're talking. Everybody talks to the phone these days, and that's all great for the social media coverage. But having a conversation, you get so real. I mean, we're all from anywhere in the world, and we just we always I can tell you- we always see ourselves in each other's stories every single time.
Melanie Little (30:11)
Yeah, I love that. Mm-hmm.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:12)
So you do?
Melanie Little (30:14)
I love that. I love your format.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:16)
It's great fun. I want to look at your story a little bit more for a moment. You shared that you did have your own addiction. How did you end up in addiction?
Melanie Little (30:26)
Grew up in a household where my father had an addiction to alcohol, and there was a lot of substance abuse in my household growing up. and so
You know, I don't want to tell my parents' story so much; I just want to honour them, but I will tell you that there was a long period of time, many, many years, until I was fifteen, that our household was unsafe. And I was the oldest of three siblings. I mean, I have two younger sisters. I have two stepsisters also, but this part of my childhood was my two biological sisters who are younger than me. And so being the oldest, I took on a lot of responsibility. And part of what I remember growing up is that I had decided I would I carried a lot of anger for our situation, and I decided I would never be an addict or an alcoholic. You know, I would never have that problem. And it's so interesting how we and this is where cycles come in because there were so many things working within me in my ecosystem, in my messages that I couldn't tell you, you know, where there's so much in our unconscious psyche that directs our behaviour and our attitudes and our nuanced connections, and you know, just all of that. And I ended up repeating the same kind of cycle very much in my own life. And it started off as I think many people do in adolescence. I was just experimenting.
But very quickly, very quickly, I was drinking alcoholically. It was not a gradual process for me. And, you know, I found myself there surprisingly because I thought being a survivor as a child and so responsible for, you know, so much that I shouldn't have been responsible for, I thought I had control over a lot of things that I did not.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:48)
Fascinating. You thought you had control. Do we ever really have control?
Melanie Little (32:53)
The older I get, the more convinced I am that I am powerless over pretty much everything.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:00)
Pretty much.
You started experimenting with things and then ended up addicted. Are you saying you were just curious what this drink like? Was it like that?
Melanie Little (33:10)
I think it was more trying to fit in, you know, because the other kids were doing it, and the moment that I drank, I felt a relief.
I didn't have to worry and care about everything that I was always carrying. I didn't know what that was like. I didn't know what it was like not to have the burden of the responsibilities that I had in the household and the stress that I was always feeling about it. I thought that was normal. And I think that was part of it.
But part of it was just, yeah, I mean the other kids are doing it, I look cool, now I feel like I can fit in and and talk to them and have fun and I don't have to worry.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:54)
There's an element of perhaps social anxiety there. Totally.
Melanie Little (33:58)
Yes, well, and also I will say beyond social anxiety, anybody that has grown up in a household like that probably knows. I mean, if you look at family systems theory, I was the hero child. I was taking responsibility, I was overachieving, I was doing things that I shouldn't have had to do, but I did because of the way our family operated. And so anyone that's been in that position will know that I lost I lost the the question you asked me. I'm sorry, I want to make sure I'm answering your question. Do you remember? Okay.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:31)
It's okay, just let it go wherever it goes. I'll be real with you. If this is encouraging,
very occasionally I forget my start, and I let the destination be what it becomes.
Melanie Little (34:43)
Yeah, but I carried a lot of responsibility and that stress that comes from it and then it was just it was normal, and like the dysfunction I thought everybody else had in their lives.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:02)
I can relate to that so much.
I think that in my version of that, part of the social anxiety was everybody else seems fine, and maybe they still of course; everybody has issues in life, but you get social and you think people aren't in crisis after a crisis. The people around me are not completely burned out or dealing with odd dynamics, whatever it is, that there's an isolated feeling. And this is why it's so important to share what we can share within appropriate boundaries. I wonder if that gets tied up in the social anxiety, but also the cultural just the cultural norm as well.
You said that drinks, well, drinks would have just been around when you were being social. I have seen that over the years, and it's great to explore that for a second with you. More recently, I was getting social a little bit, and yes, there were some communities where, okay, there's a bar, but also now I will be so delicate here to just say I was in a relationship where neither side had an addiction going on. It's not like that, but I was back in that space of okay, go to the pub and have a drink with the meal at the end of the day. Those sorts of habits. And suddenly I was realising that I was having a drink a few more times in the week, not in an excessive way, not in a way that I couldn't stop, but suddenly that was creeping into the normal every day in a way that hadn't really been happening before that. Do you think that I wonder how normal it is for people to end up possibly in an addiction or just in a habit they didn't have before simply because it's there?
Melanie Little (37:05)
Goodness, that's a great question. And this is getting into a controversial opinion about addiction. I'm gonna tell you my view of this question, and this topic has changed over time because initially, you know, going into the rooms, the rooms being recovery, 12 step recovery, it can tend to be very the word for it pure puristic maybe i don't know if that's the right word for it but like you know everybody believes something about addiction but you hear these same things about you know the way our brain it gets triggered and the way that we don't we're not able to stop and we don't have control and it kind of paints a picture of most addictions looking the same. Well, the literature actually doesn't say that necessarily. The literature talks about different types of alcoholism presentation. And so, you know, that's where the debate comes in. But what I will tell you that, just from my own experience working with people who struggle with addiction and then having my own experience, I believe there are many different flavours of addiction. I think that you can develop a habit of overdrinking, and then you can arrest that with a structured program and be on your way. You know, you can live life.
Happily, and that can appear pretty easy from the outside watching somebody, you know, experience that sort of a transformation in their recovery. While some people become so overcome by the addiction that they feel absolutely out of control and powerless and don't believe that they have the power.
To make any choices. And we could dive into, like, the neurobiology and everything behind it because there's some truth to that, but there's also truth in that when you know that it's problematic, you have a choice to continue going one way or to stop. And that sounds very simple, but it is the first choice. How you go about doing it can look very different depending on the way that that alcoholism or that addiction has presented itself with you.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:59)
It's different. Why?
Melanie Little (39:59)
I've tried to be very careful about how I address that, but does that answer your question? Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:03)
Is that about making it scientifically accurate or just picking the right words?
Melanie Little (40:09)
I don't wanna minimise it because there are a lot of people where I mean, this is life or death to people who are in recovery, and more so for some than others. I happen to be one of those who didn't traditionally hit bottom like a lot of people in the rooms. And so I tend to be very respect. I respect them, you know. I respect everybody's experience of this. That's why I'm being careful because my experience was that my internal conviction, my internal conflict, was where my bottom was. I didn't lose my job and lose my family and, you know, end up in a hospital or a detox or anything like that, and I got sober going to AA. A lot of people have a very different story, and everyone's story is important.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:06)
Absolutely.
Do some people get so extreme that something dangerous happens?
Melanie Little (41:13)
Yes. Yeah. I mean, you know, some people die from addiction. And alcoholism is one of the ugliest addictions to watch somebody lose their life to. Yeah. But I think I think part of your question, though, is it takes me to the biopsychosocial model, which is where we can look at, like, what are the different risk factors. Are you familiar with it?
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:43)
No, no, I wanted to hear about this.
Melanie Little (41:46)
Do you okay?
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:47)
Yeah.
Melanie Little (41:48)
So there are different risk factors that create different ways that the alcoholism or addiction presents itself to people, and also the complexity in which it takes them over. You know, when someone is in bondage with addiction, it's really hard when they come into recovery, or you know, when they come into counselling or a treatment centre, to predict you can't predict who's gonna be successful and who's not, or how long it's gonna take for them to recover.
But there are some key things that we look at. So biologically, they might have certain risk factors, psychologically they might have certain risk factors, and then social risk factors. And depending on what that looks like makes a difference in how complex this thing is for them.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:40)
What sorts of risk factors do people need to be aware of? And can we improve our risk, so to speak? Like perhaps being more connected in community, anything like that?
Melanie Little (42:54)
Absolutely, yes. So biological risk factors, I mean, my husband and I are both in recovery. So we have had many conversations with our sons about their propensity; they are at high risk just because of that.
So we want them to know that. And so we've had lots of conversations. We don't expect them never to drink or to swear off, you know, alcohol completely, but they know that they have to be responsible, and we talk about boundaries around it and how to drink responsibly and safely. So that's a conversation that we have. So biological risk factors could simply be, you know, it's hereditary, and it runs in your family.
And then the psychological piece is it there's there was a lot there. But if you had a traumatic upbringing, or if there's complex trauma in your history, that's already going to be something that is that complicates the situation, but also
Some people just have they're just born with imbalances, or you know, mental illness, and that's another complication. And that can get really I mean you know, when you have when you're stacked with these risk factors, it gets very complex, and you know this can be a very difficult thing to overcome.
And then socially, I mean, I think we've talked about some of the social risk factors already, but just being, you know, in a underserved population or, you know, growing up in an environment where there's a lot of conflict or crime can put you at risk. So there's a lot there.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:50)
An underserved population, let's look at that for a second. What does that mean?
Melanie Little (44:55)
God could mean a lot of things. Yeah, that could be a lot of things. But really, you know, if you, I mean just in poverty, you're presented with a lot of difficulties, a lot of stresses that somebody else might not be presented with, you know.
If you're in a survival stance all the time, that's stressful and traumatic. You know, and that's gonna contribute.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:25)
Interesting, interesting. That is clicking with me in some way because what I have observed about the world in the past half a decade is just looking at the survival state for a second. We all got out of COVID, and there was naturally whatever form of stress we had with whatever was going on then. We got out of COVID.
We all globally tried to learn how to exist after that. And then in the few years after getting back into the world, there has been an economic shift. I trust it might be like this where you live in Texas. Over here, I can tell you, anybody from any walk of life, whether they are a business owner or they are working for someone, pretty much anybody I have talked to in the past year or so is concerned about the cost of everything, and it is a form of stress. I am so concerned. This is why you are one of the most useful guests. You're looking at things that everybody needs to hear because the survival I absolutely agree there are specific neighborhoods that are not served they don't have the resources the solutions i can tell you i was i was on the coast where there were statistically less jobs it's clear you can look at a website and get the proof that will feel obvious that there will be more jobs in Sydney than in other towns, okay, or other cities. So it's great to be back in Sydney. But so yes, there are areas that have it even worse. But in some form as well, whoever is listening to this will be feeling the crunch in some way.
We almost need to use this opportunity to caution everybody that, do you think it's in those moments when people are feeling the crunch, so to speak, that they end up on a bit of a slippery slope, at least at the top of that slope, whether they start rolling down it or not.
Melanie Little (47:42)
I mean, they can, yes. Some people just have resilience built into them, you know. Which I find fascinating. But also, yes, they are susceptible to being drawn into something that is. I mean, you know, if you can put yourself in that mindset, if all things are stacked against you or seemingly stacked against you, and you feel like you don't have control over anything, the thing that you have control over is not to care. And so you turn it off; you can turn it off with alcohol or drugs. So that definitely puts them in a position to be on a slippery slope.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:26)
Is
it emotionally checking out?
Melanie Little (48:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:29)
This is joining all the dots so much. And I wanted to detour. See, I love a tangent. I'll embrace the tangents.
Melanie Little (48:38)
Okay.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:39)
Because detouring from here, we need to look at addiction to work. That's going to be a slippery slope these days as well. A lot of people, at least what I've seen near me, a lot of people have two jobs, maybe work for themselves and work for someone else, whatever they need to do, or people are working countless hours for their business, whatever it might be. And it seems like I wanted to go back for a moment to the addictions we described or identified yesterday, where it looks socially acceptable on the surface. And of course, your first beer or wine will be socially acceptable, sure.
But there are the other things. We talked about exercise as well. So work is under that umbrella of it looks like a good thing to do loads of it. How do we know when something is going too far?
Melanie Little (49:32)
I get that question a lot, and my answer is you look at your motivation.
Because whatever your motivation is is going to tell you, you know, what's your agenda? What's your agenda behind this? Are you doing this to escape something or to avoid something? Are you doing it because you're propelled by fear? If you're motivated by fear, that's something to look at.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:59)
Ooh. So the fear leads people to doing too much of something.
Melanie Little (50:04)
A lot of times fear, and that's one of my favourite questions to ask people is what is it that you're afraid of? And then you just get the deer in the headlights, God, she can see through me.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:15)
You really can.
Melanie Little (50:18)
Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:18)
We need to learn these influences, like the fear. Nobody talks about this. And I adore how you are looking at the thing behind the thing. Because who hasn't seen an advertisement that simply says Drink responsibly? And we all know there's this ideal of work-life balance, and we can debate whether balance is a thing or not, but people aren't looking at what's going on behind these habits. The fear.
Melanie Little (50:49)
Yes. Yeah.
And
The fear is sometimes hard to identify. It takes something to be willing to look at that. So I do want to say that. But yes, if you can look at your motivation or your motive, it's going to tell you something about why, if you can look at it honestly, it's going to tell you something about why you're doing it.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:11)
Does that mean it's okay to do a lot of a healthy thing if it's for the right reasons?
Melanie Little (51:19)
I mean, I think so. You know, if you're so I love to exercise, let me just say, I have been on both sides of that where I think I've overdone it. And then I, you know, like right now, I work out maybe five times four or five times a week.
And my motivation is to stay healthy, to keep moving, to challenge myself to do something new that maybe I've been working on in the gym. Whereas, in you know, many years ago, I was motivated by my body image or maybe comparing myself to others or my fear that I would gain weight or, you know, just those reasons are not healthy reasons. I don't think I'm working out more or less than I was then, but it looks different.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:22)
It looks different. Feeling
Melanie Little (52:24)
Mm-hmm.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:24)
Healthy is a positive reason. You mentioned the body image. We need to figure out where people can draw the line on that one. It's worth exploring that. I am just baffled by what I'm seeing on social media right now. I'm old-fashioned. I'm not getting into this whole Ozempic thing, Ozempic that everybody is talking about.
But there is still these extra trends appearing even now. You would think we would all be enlightened to reality, but yet these things are popping up. And there's still it's interesting. I talked with someone locally a couple of months ago who said that around here, if someone is, in his opinion, if someone is teaching yoga, they need the look. And I realised, okay, there are spaces where you need to look like Kim Kardashian as you sip your green smoothie, and then you are, and I don't subscribe to that conformity at all- but we all have a slippery slope of some sort, even if it's a little bit more old-fashioned than that. The scale, the scale, so many people perhaps know that they do need to lose weight, but then maybe take it too far. Is that how can we maintain a healthy relationship with healthiness?
Melanie Little (53:58)
Gosh, this might be another episode.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:01)
Okay, that's
a whole episode.
Melanie Little (54:03)
You know, here's what I will speak to on that. I don't
There are a lot of different reasons people take those medications. And there are a lot of good reasons to take them. And so I don't want to sound as if I'm judging that. I'm not, I'm not standing in judgment of using a particular medication. What I do caution people about is our culture, our culture of being thin or a certain body image, because it changes from time to time. There's a really great book, The Body is not an Apology by Sonia Renee. Sonia Renee Taylor. Here I'll show you.
Have you seen that? Good book.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:47)
Seven. Right up close. Okay, quite a cover.
Melanie Little (54:50)
I know. So yeah, she talks about this, but you know, it's cultural, and I think that it's important. One of the things in writing about cycles and our just our affinity for
Repetition, you know, we are drawn to what is repeated. We are drawn to the familiar. And when we see images of thin models and weight loss medications, this becomes normal.
There's what's called the mirror exposure effect. And mere exposure, the mirror exposure effect says that when we are repeatedly presented with something, we start to like it, and then we think we need it. And I mean, that's just really a very simplified explanation of that. But when we see these images over and over again and again, on social media, and now with AI, we can make it look however we want. And it starts to look normal; we think we need it. So that's the beginning of it. And if you are in a v a vulnerable place with your self-esteem or the way that you see yourself, you're vulnerable to that maybe showing up for you in an unhealthy way.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:14)
I see, I see. As we wind up, I want to give a compassionate call to action to anybody who is listening. Maybe someone is either feeling a bit addicted to something or not. It could be chocolate; it could be whatever. Or maybe they're feeling fine and just want to make sure they are living responsibly. How can someone
Connect with community or friends or where should someone go to be authentic and keep themselves in check, but also just connect with the world beyond the self to stay on the right track.
Melanie Little (56:57)
The first thing that I would say is, I mean, I hate the answer that depends, but that depends. Because there's commun there are communities through church, there are communities through the gym, there are communities through, you know, community centres, but there are a lot of ways to connect with people. You just have to be willing to get out there. And that takes courage. None of this is none of this happens without getting uncomfortable and being courageous. And so stepping out and making that connection is important. There are, you know, a lot of resources through, you know, you're in Sydney, and I'm in Texas, so we have different communities.
But online you can search for communities. If it is addiction-related, there are a number of resources, and there's a 12-step program for everything. But also I think what I would say is it starts with you. So if you want to connect with authentic people, you have to be willing to be authentic.
And belonging actually comes from within us when we start to be willing to accept ourselves exactly for who we are and present that way.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:23)
Melanie Little, thank you so much for talking on the podcast again.
Melanie Little (58:27)
Thank you. Glad to be here.
Part 1
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)
t one well, I mean, you and I were corresponding over Instagram, and then I, you know, I looked at some of the other podcast recordings that you have, and I don't know, I just felt like this was the
Melanie Little (00:02)
Well, I mean, you and I were corresponding over Instagram, and then I you know, I looked at some of the other podcast recordings that you have, and I don't know. I just felt like this was the one.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:20)
One that is so good. It's nice knowing that you have been following along
Yeah, it's awesome. Look, I'll tell you what. That person who rescheduled to make space for this, she emailed to me, and she called me by my middle name, and it's just bizarre. I really prefer working with people who are familiar with what I do. So that's
Melanie Little (00:50)
Mm-hmm.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:51)
That's awesome. But look, let's dive right in. We're finally doing this recording. So I'll move the mic over it.
Melanie Little (00:55)
Okay. Can you hear me okay?
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:59)
Yeah, I'll put the mic here. The door is steady. Just turn it shot. Yeah. No big curses going on now. Okay.
Okay.
You have your middle name in your Instagram. Do you normally say Melanie Moran Little or just Melanie Little? What do you prefer? Melanie Little. Moran is actually my maiden name.
Melanie Little (01:24)
Melanie Little. Moran is actually my maiden name. Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:28)
Okay, okay.
Melanie Little, welcome to the Motivate Collective podcast.
Melanie Little (01:35)
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:36)
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
How do you explain to everybody what you do?
Melanie Little (01:43)
Well, first
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:43)
Well, first
Melanie Little (01:44)
I am a licensed clinical social worker, and so I do work in a private practice, and I work with clients who are recovering. My specialties are alcohol and drug addiction. But I also work with complex trauma and then couples and then everything else that comes along with counselling.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:45)
I am a licensed clinical social worker, and so I do work in a private practice, and I work with clients who are recovering. My specialties are alcohol and drug addiction, but I also work with complex trauma and then couples and then everything else that comes along with counselling.
Everything else as well.
Melanie Little (02:14)
Everything else, yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:15)
Everything else, yeah.
But a whole lot of recovery from addiction, trauma, and other things.
Melanie Little (02:22)
Yes. And those things have influenced me to write. So I am also a writer and a blogger.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:22)
Yes. And those things have influenced me to write. So I am also a writer and a blogger.
A writer what do you write aside from blogs?
Aside from blogs. Well, right now I have a manuscript. I'm looking for a publishing agent and the book that is
Melanie Little (02:38)
Aside from blogs. Well, right now I have a manuscript. I'm looking for a publishing agent and the book that is
In my vision. It's not published yet, but it's called On Repeat, and it's about unlocking unwanted cycles. So coming from a psychological
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:47)
In my vision, it's not published yet, but it's called On Repeat, and it's about unlocking unwanted cycles. So coming from a psychological
Melanie Little (03:01)
point of view, but also looking at it through a spiritual lens and then neurobiology. And so kind of bringing all of that together to explain why we get into cycles that are hard to break and then how to break out of them.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:02)
Point of view, but also looking at it through a spiritual lens and then neurobiology, and so kind of bringing all of that together to explain why we get into cycles that are hard to break and then how to break out them.
We really do. We end up reliving the same experience again and again in different forms, right?
Melanie Little (03:25)
Yes. We depend on it.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:25)
Yes. We depend on
it.
We depend on it. Why? Because
Melanie Little (03:31)
Because our brain likes
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:31)
Because our brain likes
Melanie Little (03:35)
familiarity. We are drawn to things that happen on repeat. And that's where the book's title comes from. But because we are such adaptive creatures, we seek out things that are familiar. And you know, just for example, like if you
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:35)
familiarity. We are drawn to things that happen on repeat. And that's where the book's title comes from. But because we are such adaptive creatures, we seek out things that are familiar. And you know, just for example, like if you
Melanie Little (03:55)
Grew up in a dysfunctional home, you know, the
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:55)
grew up in a dysfunctional home, you know, the
Melanie Little (03:59)
repeated message that there are things we don't talk about. Like everything gets quiet when you talk about the difficult thing. You're gonna learn; I need to adapt to that. That repeated message keeps coming to me. So I'm gonna adapt and do what feels comfortable. So we kind of look for that repeat messaging.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:59)
The repeated message that there are things we don't talk about. Like everything gets quiet when you talk about the difficult thing. You're gonna learn; I need to adapt to that. That repeated message keeps coming to me, so I'm gonna adapt and do what feels comfortable. So we kind of look for that repeat messaging.
Melanie Little (04:25)
But what I'm finding is that in our modern world, we
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:25)
But what I'm finding is that in our modern world.
Melanie Little (04:28)
get messages that confuse that survival instinct in us. And so one of the things that I write about is how we can become, you know, we become addicted to things like our devices or shopping. Because repeated things
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:28)
we get messages that confuse that survival instinct in us. And so one of the things that I write about is how we can become, you know, we become addicted to things like our devices or shopping. Because repeated things
Melanie Little (04:53)
That we present to our brain makes the brain there's
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:53)
that we present to our brain makes the brain
Melanie Little (04:58)
what's called the mirror exposure effect. And so with the mirror exposure effect, things that are repeatedly ex we're exposed to, we start to like it, and then we start to look for it, and then we start to depend on it because it feels safe to expect to or to know what to expect.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:58)
There's what's called the mirror exposure effect, and so with the mirror exposure effect, things that are repeatedly ex we're exposed to, we start to like it, and then we start to look for it, and then we start to depend on it because it feels safe to expect to or to know what to expect.
Is this saying that anything that we are exposed to enough becomes familiar, and then we end up wanting it simply because it is familiar, which is because it had been around?
And that has so generally
Melanie Little (05:41)
Generally. Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:44)
That has so much less to do with what we actually need.
Melanie Little (05:48)
Right.
I mean sometimes it's what we need,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:49)
I mean sometimes it's what we need,
Melanie Little (05:54)
But a lot of times it's what we don't need.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:54)
But a lot of times it's what we don't need.
Melanie Little (05:59)
You know, and that's the confusing message with addiction. Our brain, the part of our brain that's primitive and picks up
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:59)
You know, and that's the confusing message with addiction. Our brain, the part of our brain that's primitive and picks up
Melanie Little (06:06)
the
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:06)
the
Melanie Little (06:07)
reward from what we put in our bodies with chemical addiction; it gets confused because it you know, it feels good, and you're repeatedly presenting it into your body, and so the brain thinks,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:07)
reward from what we put in our bodies with chemical addiction, it's confused because it you know it feels good, and you're repeatedly presenting it into your body and into the brain things,
Melanie Little (06:22)
That's pleasurable, I need it, I like it, and then at some point
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:22)
that's pleasurable, I need it, I like it. And then at some point
Melanie Little (06:28)
it becomes harmful; the brain gets confused about it. So at the same time that you hate the addiction, you still love the drug, and they're two conflicting messages. But that's true for so many other patterns that we get into.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:28)
It becomes harmful; the brain gets confused about it. So at the same time that you hate the addiction, you still love the drug, and they're two conflicting messages. That's true for so many other patterns that we get into.
What inspired you to focus on these things? Were you needing to at some point in life break free from something that was familiar?
Melanie Little (07:01)
Well, I'm in recovery. So first and foremost, that has been kind of my I mean, that's part of my story
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:02)
Well, I'm in recovery. So first and foremost, that has been kind of my I mean, that's part of my story
Melanie Little (07:13)
is that I was addicted to alcohol and drugs, but mostly alcohol. And I overcame that. And through the process of recovery, I've learned so much about what
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:14)
that I was addicted to alcohol and drugs, but mostly alcohol. And I overcame that, and through the process of recovery I've learned so much about what
Melanie Little (07:31)
what addiction is, how progressive it is, and why it's so hard to break free from. But working with people who struggle with a number of different things, you know, I get to see every single day how people become kind of tethered to cycles that
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:31)
what addiction is, how progressive it is, and why it's so hard to break free from. But working with people who struggle with a number of different things, you know, I get to see every single day how people become kind of tethered to cycles that
Melanie Little (07:58)
They know, you know, this is this is destructive for me, and for some reason, I cannot break away from it.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:58)
They know you know, this is this is destructive for me, and for some reason I cannot break away from it.
These cycles, it can be more than the stereotypical addictions, right? And the devices as well. Some people get into cycles with relationships that are not good for them, or perhaps cycles with habits with how they approach their careers. Maybe they are shying away from the ambitious or aspirational work. What sorts of cycles are we getting into beyond the obvious ones?
Melanie Little (08:42)
That's a good question. you know, one of the things that I mean you mentioned relationships and that's a big that was a big motivator for me to write this because that's probably one of the hardest things for people to break away from or to break out of. Anytime we get into because we're dealing with attachment wounds and emotion and so those relational cycles are hard.
Melanie Little (09:07)
and emotion, and so those relational cycles are hard
but aside from what's common, is that what your question is
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:15)
But aside from what's common, is that what your question
is?
Yes, just anything people
wouldn't expect that's a cycle that we need to keep an eye out for. But the relationships are a big one for sure.
Melanie Little (09:31)
That's a big one.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:31)
It's a big one.
Melanie Little (09:34)
I don't think this is a surprise to anybody but devices and social media. But the thing that I think might surprise people is that
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:34)
I don't think this is a surprise to anybody but devices and social media. But the thing that I think might surprise people is that
Melanie Little (09:44)
when
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:44)
When
Melanie Little (09:48)
The one I see a lot is when somebody gets addicted to exercise.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:48)
The one I see a lot is when somebody gets addicted to exercise.
Okay. Tell me.
Melanie Little (09:59)
So, you know, certain types of exercise can be stimulating, in I mean, it all exercise is stimulating in some way, but when you get into exercise where it's, you know, your brain is picking up on reward.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:59)
So you know, certain types of exercise can be stimulating in, I mean, it's all exercise is stimulating in some way, but when you get into exercise where it's, you know, your brain is picking up on reward.
Melanie Little (10:19)
And you've heard of the runner's high.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:19)
And you've heard of the runner's high.
A bit. I wasn't a bit.
Melanie Little (10:24)
Okay.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:25)
I wasn't a runner growing up. I was not identifying as athletic. But we've all heard there's even that line in Legally Blonde about exercise and happy people. You know how that
Melanie Little (10:40)
Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:40)
line ends. But for me, I had phases of trying to get into exercise, and I can understand.
For me, it wasn't even a happy or excited feeling. It was just this I don't know if you've identified a kind of just go, go, go, go, go, that sort of hype from all the movement. What is it like for everybody else with that?
Melanie Little (11:10)
Well
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:10)
Well,
Melanie Little (11:11)
I don't know if it's always the movement that makes it so addictive, but I but there is a there is a chemical thing that happens
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:11)
I don't know if it's always the movement that makes it so addictive, but I but there is a there is a chemical thing that
Melanie Little (11:19)
in our brain when we exercise and when we do it regularly. And so with a runner, for example, you have to push through the first mile. The first mile is treacherous; it's painful. And then at some point there's this kind of feeling like, I could keep this pace forever. And that's what the runner's high is. It kind of lofts you into
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:19)
in our brain when we exercise and when we do it regularly. And so with a runner, for example, you have to push through the first mile. The first mile is treacherous, it's painful. And then at some point there's this kind of feeling like, I could keep this pace forever. And that's what the runner's eye is. It kind of wafts you into
Melanie Little (11:41)
This, you know, your body adapts to that pace,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:41)
This, you know, your body adapts to that pace.
Melanie Little (11:48)
And your brain kind of accepts the discomfort, and you get into it, and then also there are chemicals that release, like endorphins, and I don't want to get all technical about the neural transplants and stuff, but but there's chemicals that feel like they give us energy that excite us that give us some euphoria.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:48)
And your brain kind of accepts the discomfort, and you get into and then also there are chemicals that release, like endorphins, and I don't want to get all technical about the why not stuff, but but there's chemicals that feel like they give us energy that excite us that give us some euphoria
Melanie Little (12:12)
And also take away the pain. And so if all of that's happening,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:12)
and also take the pain. And so if all of that's happening
Melanie Little (12:17)
Of course, you're going to want to do that again, but you have to get past that painful part. And so part of the addicting thing is: hey, look what I can I can push through this. And so just that accomplishment becomes rewarding. And then if you get into you know, the body image.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:17)
Of course you're gonna want to do that again, but you have to get past that painful part. And so part of the addicting thing is, hey, look what I can I can push through this, and so just that accomplishment becomes rewarding. And then if you get into, you know, the body image
Melanie Little (12:39)
Part of exercise, that too is rewarding, and then can become part
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:40)
part of exercise, that too is rewarding and then can become
Melanie Little (12:47)
of the addiction.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:47)
Part of the addiction.
Melanie Little (12:49)
So it can just all be overdone. It gets pretty complex. I don't want to put so many layers together to where we lose kind of the point of this, but the repetitive part of it is when I do this, I feel good, I get this reward, and then I want to do it again. And
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:50)
So it can just all be overdone. It gets pretty complex. I don't want to put so many layers together to where we lose kind of the point of this, but the repetitive part of it is when I do this, I feel good, I get this reward, and then I want to do it again. And
Melanie Little (13:13)
If you do too much, you
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:13)
If you do too much.
Melanie Little (13:15)
know, exercise can put stress on the body, and then you get the stress chemicals or the stress hormones, and then you get the mixed messages that I was talking about.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:15)
You know, exercise can put stress on the body, and then you get the stress chemicals or the stress hormones, and then you get the mixed messages that I was talking about.
Melanie Little (13:30)
Like with addiction.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:30)
The stress hormones and
stress chemicals, even though we're doing something that we think is good for us.
Melanie Little (13:38)
Right.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:38)
Right.
Melanie Little (13:39)
Right.
Yeah, because you're stressing your body out, your brain doesn't know the difference between good stress and bad stress.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:41)
That's because you're stressing your body out. Your brain doesn't know the difference between good stress and bad stress.
This is an eye-opener for me because I don't know if this is a thing, but I always felt like I always sensed that I was feeling emotions and physical changes very intensely. Perhaps being more as sensitive, and everything just feels
more extreme. So for me, as an example, many, many years ago when I was younger, there were these specific types of gyms for women where you do this one thing for half a minute, this thing for half a minute, that sort of thing. And the go, go, go, like I was describing before, the go, go, go, go, go, I just felt stressed and hyped, and it was like this kind of induced
fight or flight that turned me into a bit of a bastard. But I knew it was coming out when I was doing that. And this is why I love going to yoga, because we're slowing down and steady, and you don't have my brain wanted to call it a panic.
Melanie Little (14:57)
Yes. You, well, okay, so you're picking up on something that
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:57)
Yes. You well, okay, so there you're picking up on something that
Melanie Little (15:06)
keep editing myself because I can go really into so far into the technical language around this, but
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:06)
keep editing myself because I can go really into so far into the technical language around this.
But okay, actually on that note, on the self-censoring,
Melanie Little (15:16)
there's what's called
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:19)
two things. Firstly, we have time on what I would call tomorrow morning, if we wanted to elaborate on more stuff. But also
Melanie Little (15:26)
Okay.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:27)
Let's get inspired for a second by Amy Sherman Palladino, who used to say, trust that your audience is smart.
We have a smart audience. Enough of our
Melanie Little (15:35)
Okay.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:36)
listeners have even been on the show. So let's just take the extra nerdy approach. Go for it.
Okay. So there is a there's what's called the polymages.
Melanie Little (15:43)
Okay. So there is a there's what's called the polyvagal theory.
And so there's you've heard of the vagus nerve. Yeah. And so the vagus nerve regulates us. And so when you have that heartbeat that, you know, when your heart rate increases and your breath shortens, it does feel like panic.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:49)
And so you've heard of the vagus nerve. Yeah. And so the vagus nerve regulates us. And so when you have that heartbeat that, you know, when your heart rate increases and your breath shortens, it does feel like panic.
And that is a sympathetic response in our body and in our brain. So the nervous system picks up on it and
Melanie Little (16:07)
And that is a sympathetic response in our body and in our brain. so the nervous system picks up on it. And we want to be in a dorsal vagal state, which is calm and just kind of neutral. I'm sorry, not dorsal vagal, ventral vagal. Dorsal vagal is the opposite, which is kind of a shutdown or, you know, everything slows and just.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:19)
We want to be in a dorsal vagal state, which is calm and just kind of neutral. I'm sorry, not dorsal vagal, ventral vagal. Dorsal vagal is the opposite, which is kind of a shutdown or a you know, everything slows and just
Melanie Little (16:37)
collapses, just kind of freezes. And so we want to be in that ventral vagal space, which is neutral, calm, homeostasis.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:37)
Collapses, just kind of freezes. And so we want to be in that ventral vagal space, which is neutral, calm.
Melanie Little (16:48)
And that's where yoga takes you. Yoga is really good. Yeah. Yeah. And because you're breathing and it's slow movement, and there's a lot of mindfulness with it.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:48)
Homeostasis, and that's where yoga takes you. Yoga's really good. Yeah. It is. Yeah, and 'cause you're breathing and you're, you're it's slow movement, and there's a lot of mindfulness with it.
It makes a difference being able to focus on one thing, the point of focus, and following the breath, but steadying the breath.
It
Melanie Little (17:14)
Yes.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:14)
has been transformational because I truly did not cope with any sort of activity really, but doing something that keeps steady.
It's connecting people with movement in a way that doesn't put us into a panic and brings us into the opposite, into an actual safe feeling. And the word
Melanie Little (17:40)
Right.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:40)
Safe has been overused in the past half a decade, right? But we're talking about we're talking about what you have described. That really transforms things. Now let's go back to relationships for a moment.
That's a huge one. We
Melanie Little (18:00)
Yes.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:00)
We can look at romantic relationships or intimate relationships of whatever sort. I'm going to trust that also work relationships can sometimes be something we end up in a cycle with. Perhaps people want to do particular work, or they want to work with particular people, whatever it might be.
What sorts of various relationships have you seen where people are getting into a cycle?
Melanie Little (18:36)
Well, it starts with our relationship growing
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:38)
It starts with our relationship
Melanie Little (18:40)
Up, with our relationship with our parents and our family. That's where we learn.
That's where we develop our first important relational bonds. That's where we learn how to fight, you know, or argue, and how to resolve arguments. It's how it's where we learn what we take into the world as what we believe to be gender roles because we're watching mom and dad behave a certain way, or we're taught.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:49)
We develop our first important relational bonds. That's where we learn how to fight, you know, or argue, and how to resolve arguments. It's how it's where we learn what we take into the world is what we believe to be gender roles because we're watching mom and dad behave a certain way or we're taught
Melanie Little (19:15)
you know, that this
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:15)
you know that
Melanie Little (19:16)
is what a married couple looks like, or if you have divorced parents, you know, that's a whole nother set of examples. So we learn all of that. And unfortunately, a lot of people end up being hurt in those bonds. And then they carry
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:16)
This is what a married couple looks like, or if you have divorced parents, you know, that's a whole another set of examples. So we learn all of that. And unfortunately, a lot of people end up being hurt in those bonds, and then they carry
Melanie Little (19:33)
wounds into other relationships. So what happens at the early stage of life gets projected into everything, into every relationship.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:33)
wounds into other relationships. So what happens at the early stage of life gets projected into everything, into every relationship.
Melanie Little (19:44)
So when you ask me where I see cycles in relationships, it's every relationship. It's friends, it's coworkers, you know, your work,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:44)
So when you ask me where I see cycles and relationships, it's every relationship. It's friends, it's coworkers, you know, your work
Melanie Little (19:58)
Group or your colleagues become your family, you know, it just mimics a family system. And then if you bring into the workplace wounds around maybe parental figures,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:59)
group or your colleagues become your family, you know, it just mimics a family system. And then if you bring it to the workplace, wounds around maybe parental figures.
Melanie Little (20:13)
You might be intimidated by authority figures. You're not gonna do well with criticism, or you know, feedback or your
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:14)
You might be intimidated by authority figures. You're not gonna do well with criticism, or you know, feedback or your boss
Melanie Little (20:23)
boss being unhappy with something. So I mean, just all of those different dynamics. Carl Jung talks about this: that we take into relationships all of our wounds, all of our attachment wounds.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:24)
Being unhappy with something. So I mean just all of those different dynamics. Carl Jung talked about this: that we take into relationships all of our wounds, all of our attachment wounds.
Melanie Little (20:41)
And even in our unconscious psyche, there are drivers in relationships, and we are unaware of them. And so relationships are a series of projections and then transference.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:41)
And even in our unconscious psyche, there are drivers in relationships, and we are unaware of them. And so relationships are a series of projections and then transference.
Absolutely. It's safe to know others. I'm not going to even say assume, but we can know that people are not even aware
Of how they are projecting onto others. I personally I've said the word personally in every recording today, but fine. I end up with a catchphrase. I have
Melanie Little (21:20)
Okay.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:21)
seen such clear projections in some people lately. And would you say all we can do is all we can do is accept that other people are going to have their own
triggers and projections and so on, but we can't do anything about it. We can't change everybody, right?
You can't change anybody but yourself. Yeah. And everybody brings projections into relationships. And you're right. You can't change anybody else, but a lot of people don't know that. Or they don't accept that. So, you
Melanie Little (21:44)
Can't change anybody but yourself. Yeah. And everybody brings projections into relationships. And you're right. You can't change anybody else, but a lot of people don't know that. Or they don't accept that. So, you know,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:04)
know
Melanie Little (22:05)
there's a lot of codependency that I see in my office.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:05)
There's a lot of codependency that I see in my office
Melanie Little (22:13)
And trying to help first help clients gain awareness of what their projections are, that's hard. But that's also the beginning of healing and stepping out of a cycle. And the harder part is getting people to individuate
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:13)
And trying to help first help clients gain awareness of what their projections are, that's hard. But that's also the beginning of healing and stepping out of a cycle. And the harder part is getting people to individuate
Melanie Little (22:35)
Or accept that, like you're saying, I'm responsible for my triggers, for my projections, for my where I'm unhealed, you know, or maybe I need to address some woundedness,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:36)
Or accept that, like you're saying, I'm responsible for my triggers, for my protections, for my where I'm unhealed, you know, or maybe I need to address some woundedness.
Melanie Little (22:49)
And I can't be responsible for theirs, you know. So there's a line. This belongs to me, that belongs to you, and knowing where to set that boundary.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:53)
You know, so there's a line. This belongs to me, that belongs to you, and knowing where to set that boundary.
We can own our triggers and other people can own their triggers. Right. I'll ask a specific question because with all of this, it seems like the best way to illustrate this is with examples.
I am so keen to ask you about how you guide people who don't like to have hard conversations. The reason why I'm asking that is because that concept is so foreign to me. I very much came from a space of people were allowed. When I was young, people were very loud and just saying anything, and that wasn't always good; it wasn't always bad. But also people told me that I'm on the spectrum. Okay, fine. I have so much honesty; it means at least you can trust what I'm saying is true, but it also either fits with what's around me or not. But I'm realising that some people have a different pattern based on either their preferences or how they grew up, where if something doesn't feel right, they just don't say anything. And then you don't know. So if anyone out there is trying to navigate people who don't have hard conversations, I'd love to hear your perspective on it. Because for me, I don't know how to fix what I don't know about. And there is that fixing mentality, but even I love pulling apart an issue and saying, " Yes, but yes, but that's why there's a whole podcast but then other people just want to not say anything because it might feel comfortable to them. I'm trusting that would have come up in some of the people you have worked with. What normally fixes or solves something like that?
Melanie Little (25:14)
That is the most difficult client to work with, in my opinion, is somebody who doesn't want to talk or doesn't feel comfortable talking
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:15)
That is the most difficult client to work with, in my opinion, is somebody who doesn't want to talk or doesn't feel comfortable talking
Melanie Little (25:29)
about hard things. And so it takes a lot of
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:29)
about hard things. And so it takes a lot
of so what what I know is like if you're not comfortable talking about hard things, there's something
Melanie Little (25:37)
So, what I know is like if you're not comfortable talking about hard things, there's something
behind the scenes. There's something that you, somewhere, you learned that, or you learned that that's how you protect yourself.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:45)
Behind the scenes. There's something that you somewhere you learned that, or you learned that that's how you protect yourself.
Melanie Little (25:53)
So knowing someone's history is so important. And the way that I'll approach that is I want to understand.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:53)
So knowing someone's history is so important. And the way that I'll approach that is I want to understand.
I want to understand as much as I can. And so I see it as kind of like a puzzle, you know, and I just ask one question, ask another question and just
Melanie Little (26:05)
I want to understand as much as I can. And so I see it as kind of like a puzzle, you know, and I just ask one question, ask another question, and just piece
it together so that I can try to understand their point of view and what it is that prevents them from feeling comfortable talking about something hard.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:14)
Piece it together so that I can try to understand their point of view and what it is that prevents them from feeling comfortable talking about something.
Melanie Little (26:26)
So it's not one there's not one answer that fits everybody.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:26)
So it's not one; there's not one answer that fits everybody.
Melanie Little (26:33)
But that's usually the starting point.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:33)
But that's usually the starting point.
It's a puzzle. Mm-hmm.
And it's worth putting the disclaimer, so to speak, in here at that point. It seems like every individual is different, so there isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all in all of this.
Absolutely.
Melanie Little (26:58)
Absolutely.
Yeah. But there are common
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:01)
But there are comments.
Melanie Little (27:03)
patterns that we can see, you know, once I understand the core issue or what is motivating a behaviour, then, you know, I mean, I can kind of look and see, okay, well that fits because I see that with other clients or I understand the feedback loop.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:06)
That we can, you know, once I understand the core issue or what is motivating a behaviour, then, you know, I mean I can kind of look and see, okay, well that fits because I see that with other clients or I understand the feedback loop.
You can see the loop.
Mm-hmm.
Melanie Little (27:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:32)
At what point do people realise that they need to go to you because something isn't working? Is it ever early on in these stuck cycles, or is it when things get too far?
Melanie Little (27:48)
Mostly it's when things get too far. Especially with couples work.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:49)
Mostly it's when things get too far. Especially with couples work.
Melanie Little (27:56)
Couples work is so challenging
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:57)
Couples work is so true.
Melanie Little (28:00)
Because people wait until they're at a point where they're ready to just give up, you know, and it's really hard to motivate a couple to get back to a place where okay,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:00)
Because people wait until they're at a point where they're ready to just give up. wow. And it's really hard to motivate a couple to get back to a place where okay,
Melanie Little (28:13)
this is this is
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:13)
this is this is
Melanie Little (28:16)
This is somebody you love. That's why you're sitting in front of me. But also, you know, there's a search for a willingness and then also a common goal for them.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:16)
This is somebody you love. That's why you're sitting in front of me. But also, you know, there's a search for a willingness and then also a common goal for them.
Melanie Little (28:30)
But I do have the occasional client that comes in because they're just so conscientious and they think
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:30)
But I do have the occasional client that comes in because they're just so conscientious and they think
Melanie Little (28:36)
this, you know, I'm at a point right now where something feels a little bit off. So maybe I need to go in and address it. And
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:37)
This, you know, I'm at a point right now where something feels a little bit off, so maybe I need to go in and address it. And,
Melanie Little (28:46)
You know, we'll have some light conversations, I'll give them a few tools, and they do very well. You know, that doesn't usually happen.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:46)
You know, we'll have some light conversations. I'll give them a few tools, and they do very well. You know, that doesn't usually
happen. And doesn't
I'm wondering what the reasons are behind all of that. I can trust that a lot of couples would want to think we're okay enough. We're not broken enough. Do you think there's a kind of stigma, or they want to just is it that they want to just enjoy the relationship and not delve into
admitting that there are problems to fix. Is it that it bursts the bubble? Or what else is going on there that they want to that they only wait until they're at that point?
Melanie Little (29:39)
Sometimes it's, I think it's pride.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:40)
It's, I think it's
Melanie Little (29:42)
Yeah, sometimes it's pride for one
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:45)
It from
Melanie Little (29:46)
partner, or usually one partner. Because a lot of times what I'll find is that one partner's been saying, Hey, we need to go to counselling, and the other has been refusing until it's just
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:48)
usually one partner. Because a lot of times what I'll find is that one partner's been saying, hey, we need to go to counselling, and the other has to go to a food thing until it's just
the only other option they have. You know, it's kind of that last effort.
Melanie Little (29:59)
the only other option they have. You know, it's kind of that last effort.
Sometimes it's cultural.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:11)
Sometimes it's cultural
Melanie Little (30:13)
And that's kind of hard because, you know, there are certain cultural barriers for counselling, you know, thinking that I should be able to get through this, we should be able to push through,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:14)
and that's kinda hard because you know there are certain cultural barriers for counselling, you know, thinking that I should be able to get through this, we should be able to push through,
Melanie Little (30:32)
shouldn't have to depend on somebody else. Yeah, that sort of thing.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:32)
shouldn't have to depend on somebody else. The independence.
Yeah.
Melanie Little (30:37)
Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:39)
Have you ever seen people who just quit very quickly the moment there's a problem? It's almost as though every single problem is an instant reason to give up, even if it's something small or the first time they ever disagree on something; they just deer in headlights. Does that ever happen? And
Look, I'm saying this really not naming any names and trusting that other people have maybe experienced what I have experienced, and perhaps this could help someone out there where people just give up so quickly and then change their minds and then slip back into just giving up very quickly. What is that?
Melanie Little (31:33)
When you say give up, I just wanna clarify: are you referring to the
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:33)
When you say give up, I just wanna clarify, are you referring to
Melanie Little (31:39)
way that they engage in arguments?
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:39)
The way that they engage in arguments.
Melanie Little (31:43)
Just give up an argument.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:43)
Or just exit a relationship
as a whole. We didn't disagree on this. That's it. It's done. Or we have slightly different goals or whatever. There's an issue. We're not completely happy constantly. Okay, this doesn't feel right. I'll just stop. I'll just go away.
Melanie Little (32:03)
Yeah. I mean, there's a there are a lot of things that influence that. I do see it. There are a lot of things that influence it. And I think what comes to mind as you talk about that is again it kind of goes back to that family of origin. You know, the example that you see growing up around what a relationship looks like, and it's important, by the way, to argue in front of your children. I know that's probably
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:04)
I mean, there's a there are a lot of things that influence that. I do see it. There are a lot of things that influence it. And I think what comes to mind as you talk about that is again, it kind of goes back to that family of origin. You know, the example that you see growing up of what a relationship looks like, and it's important, by the way, to argue in front of your children. I know that's probably
Melanie Little (32:34)
something that a lot of people have heard before, but I'm just gonna stress how important it is because they're learning that when we get upset with each other, we don't have to give up on each other. If you're mad at me, it doesn't mean that that you don't love me anymore. Or when people get mad at each other, they just divorce.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:34)
Something that a lot of people have heard before, but I'm just gonna stress how important it is because they're learning that when we get upset with each other, we don't have to give up on each other. If you're mad at me it doesn't mean that you don't love me anymore. Or when people get mad at each other, they just divorce.
Melanie Little (32:57)
So if you conceal all of your disagreements from your children and they think everything's always happy and then one day they
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:57)
So you conceal all of your disagreements from your children, and they think everything's always happy, and then one day they
Melanie Little (33:04)
You argue, and then you're divorced; they think that's what happens, that's what people do. So that's part of it.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:04)
See, you argue and then they're your divorce; they think that's what happens. That's what people do. So that's part of it.
Melanie Little (33:12)
But I think also whatever emphasis is placed on
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:12)
But I think also whatever emphasis is placed on
Melanie Little (33:19)
the covenant of marriage or what marriage means, what kind of, you know, commitment that is influences how.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:19)
The covenant of marriage or what marriage means, what kind of, you know, commitment that is influences how we
Melanie Little (33:30)
we take, you know, how we move into relationships as we become adults.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:30)
Take, you know, how we move into relationships as we become adults.
Melanie Little (33:37)
So I know I think in our culture, and I know I mean you're in Australia. So I'm speaking as if when I say our culture, I'm just assuming that it's similar to the States where
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:37)
So I know I'm thinking our culture, and I know I mean you're in Australia, so I'm speaking as if when I say our culture, I'm just assuming that it's similar to the States where
there's so much of what you're describing where we're
Melanie Little (33:52)
there's so much of what you're describing where we're
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:59)
in this generation, I think we do give up pretty easily and don't expect that
Melanie Little (33:59)
In this generation, I think we do give up pretty easily and don't expect that in marriage we're gonna have to work and it's gonna be hard. And sometimes I'm gonna be bothered by how my husband is chewing, or you know, like he's he's gonna do some annoying things. That doesn't mean that I need to leave him.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:06)
In marriage, we're gonna have to work, and it's gonna be hard, and sometimes I'm gonna be bothered by how my husband is chewing or, you know, like he's he's gonna do some annoying things. That doesn't mean that I need to leave him.
We get so fussy, and I wanted to have compassion for the people who realise that perhaps someone's goals don't align, and I've heard plenty of stories where people want to be literally in geographically different places, things like that. However, despite those differences, if we're looking at the smaller things, have you seen people really taking to heart those small everyday things?
Melanie Little (35:00)
Yeah, yeah. Because that's what their filter is. That's what they're looking for.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:02)
Because that's what their filter is; that's what they're looking for.
Wow.
Melanie Little (35:07)
You know, and I think too, you know, one of my clients is coming to mind as we're talking about this.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:08)
And I think too, you know, one of my clients is coming to mind as we're talking about this.
Melanie Little (35:16)
And I see this.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:16)
And I see this
Melanie Little (35:17)
Quite often is when that honeymoon face wears off. But I think that we're fed this fairy tale, you know, about marriage and what it's gonna be like. And
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:18)
quite often, is when that honeymoon phase wears off, and I think that we're fed this fairy tale, you know, about marriage and what it's gonna be like.
Melanie Little (35:29)
All of those, like butterflies we get in our stomach, and stuff like that's supposed to last forever, and it just doesn't.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:29)
And all of those like butterflies we get in our stomach and stuff like that's supposed to last forever, and it just doesn't.
Melanie Little (35:36)
We would have heart attacks if it did.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:36)
We would have heart attacks if it didn't. Totally.
Melanie Little (35:41)
Yes. So at some point we kind of cool down and you know we settle into this kind of normal homeostasis in our marriage, and it's not exciting like it was in the very beginning.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:41)
Yes. So at some point we kind of cool down and you know, we settle into this kind of normal homeostasis in our marriage, and it's not exciting like it was in the very beginning.
Melanie Little (35:56)
And I think that there is an expectation people bring into marriage
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:57)
And I think that there is an expectation people bring into marriage
Melanie Little (36:02)
where that becomes disappointing and then they start focusing on every single little thing and it just adds up.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:02)
Where that becomes disappointing and then they start focusing on every single little thing and it just adds up.
Absolutely. I worry severely as well that we are fed Instagram relationships. People talk about apps. You know what? If we are going to whinge about the internet for a second.
Everybody talks about, well, a lot of people talk about the issues around Tinder and Hinge and whatever apps I'm not naming or shaming or glorifying any in particular. But aside from all of those apps, if we even just look at Instagram for a second and whatever other social media you're into these days, where a Fed this highlight reel where it seems like
It seems like couples are just living a lifestyle and having this delightful constant experience. Of course, nobody puts the worst or the most boring side of life onto social media. That's the other thing. Let me know if you agree. Aside from relationships.
Sometimes being a handful, it can also be boring. It's not always
excitement, right?
Melanie Little (37:29)
Absolutely. And learning to just be in the boring and experience joy because you know this is my life and I chose to spend it with this person. That's part of what marriage is. And sometimes it's really hard.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:29)
Absolutely. And learning to just be in the boring and experience joy because, you know, this is my life and I chose to spend it with this person. That's part of what marriage is, and sometimes it's really hard.
Yes. I'm wondering if you have seen people who their first relationships or maybe just going with what they know and they love the fun side, the Netflix, whatever, but then they're realising, okay, I'm getting deeper into a relationship. Aside from having all of these emotions, there's that other side of a relationship where you're figuring out: are we going to share health insurance? Nobody talks about that, right? We see it especially TV. You see The Bachelor or whatever is on TV these days. I don't really watch it. But there's this version of relationships where people don't talk about that stuff. So I'm curious if you see people wanting to live in the romance and the feelings all the time, like the butterflies, I suppose, that you were describing. And although we do need to look at those practical things, I wonder if some people are scared they're losing the romance because you also need to talk about whatever everyday things, like the health insurance, the calendars, whatever. Bad example after how we went trying to organise things when the technology's duffed up, but you know, you have all these everyday things, which dentist to pick, whatever. You have that stuff, but you still want the butterflies. Do people get scared that they are completely losing that? Can you have both?
Melanie Little (39:49)
think people do get scared of losing that, and you know, some of those conversations I will encourage, you know I have a young
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:50)
I think people do get scared of losing that. And you know, some of those conversations, I will encourage, you know, I have a young client who is engaged to be married, and I encourage her to have those conversations now. Don't wait until you get into you know, stealth mode and
Melanie Little (40:03)
client who is she's engaged to be married, and I encourage her to have those conversations now. Don't wait until you get into, you know, stealth mode and you want to have those conversations up front. It's smart to do that.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:17)
You you wanna have those conversations up front. It's smart to do that.
Melanie Little (40:22)
But yeah, I think when you get into the seriousness of a relationship, and people start talking about finances and should we combine our, you know, accounts and who do we need to see for the doctor, you know, like you mentioned, or the dentist, or you know, what does our health insurance look like? Like
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:34)
You know, accounts and who do we need to see for the doctor, you know, like you mentioned or the dentist, or you know, what is our health insurance look like?
Melanie Little (40:44)
Those are boring things, but they're so important, and they're let me just say, finances is one of the number one reasons that couples don't work out.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:45)
Like those are boring things, but they're so important, and they're let me just say finances is one of the number one reasons that couples don't work out.
Totally.
Melanie Little (40:58)
So it's a really important part of
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:58)
So it's a really important part of
Melanie Little (41:01)
agreement and, you know, figuring out how your partnership works.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:01)
Agreement and, you know, figuring out how your partnership works.
Melanie Little (41:08)
If you want it to work.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:08)
If you want it to work.
There are
For some reason, the financial questions came to my mind the most. But the more you talked, I thought of if people are in a particular community, religious or sporting or whatever, do you just both go to the one community group, or also would you, if the other person needed the hospital, would you rush them to the public or the private hospital? That's how I'd
Phrase it over here, or but there are some couples who think about having children later on, then there are questions around that. Like what area, well, kids or not, which area do they want to live in? What if the two people in a couple are from different places, different suburbs, whatever? And then okay, where are you going to live? Those questions. It's it's a lot to navigate.
Melanie Little (42:04)
It is. Well, and knowing what questions
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:05)
It is. Well, and knowing what question.
Melanie Little (42:08)
to ask is hard
when you haven't done it before.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:11)
When you haven't done it before.
true.
And I think premarital counselling is a good idea for that reason.
Melanie Little (42:15)
And I think premarital counselling is a good idea for that reason.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:22)
Okay. Okay. So people need to, and it doesn't mean something is broken; it means people are learning how to do something.
Melanie Little (42:31)
Yes. But I mean, believe it or not, you know, like the young lady that I was talking about earlier that is getting ready to get married and I'm saying, okay, wait, you need to have these conversations with him. One of the things that she knows is that she wants to have children and he doesn't.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:31)
Yes. But I mean, believe it or not, you know, like the young lady that I was talking about earlier that is getting ready to get married, and I'm saying, Okay, wait, you need to have these conversations with him. One of the things that he knows is that she wants to have children and he doesn't.
You know, and so who
Melanie Little (42:47)
You know, and so if you
know that going
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:50)
know that
Melanie Little (42:51)
into it
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:51)
going into
it,
I, you know, I just encourage her to have more conversation about it because that's that down the line that could definitely be a deal breaker.
Melanie Little (42:54)
I, you know, I just encouraged her to have more conversation about it because that's that down the line that could definitely be a deal breaker.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:05)
If both sides feel so strongly about each preference, it's going to something will happen at some point with that for sure. Yeah.
Melanie Little (43:15)
Yeah.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:18)
Yeah, those questions I'm wondering how early people should talk about these things because the kid question is one of them, and I'd say location is such a question as well because some people are willing to relocate for work and others want to stay in their town or city forever. That sort of thing comes up so much because then what does the other person do? Just
get up and follow the other person for their work, that sort of thing. But of course you don't talk about all of that necessarily on the first date. So how early on that would be way too much. How early on, how can people start introducing those things comfortably before they end up months into something and then realising, gosh, I feel committed to this person. I feel deeply about this person, but
These things aren't matching up.
Melanie Little (44:23)
It just varies so much from couple to couple. Yeah. And again, you know, I know I keep going back to the family of origin, but whatever you learn about marriage, whatever values you place on marriage is gonna dictate how you do or don't address these questions
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:23)
And it just varies so much from couple to couple. Yeah. And again, you know, I know I keep going back to the family of origin, but whatever you learn about marriage, whatever values you place on marriage is gonna dictate how you do or don't address these questions
Melanie Little (44:44)
That are really important, you know, and how you view marriage. Some people actually get married not
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:44)
that are really important. And how you view marriage. Some people actually get married not
Melanie Little (44:52)
Really, I mean I I think not expecting it to be lifelong.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:53)
Really, I mean, I think not expecting it to be lifelong.
wow.
Melanie Little (44:58)
Which is silly, but
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:58)
Which is silly. But
It's it is because it feels like people are treated as disposable in today's culture.
And I suppose that can happen whether people are married or not as well.
Melanie Little (45:24)
Right.
Hence, when we go back to talking about pattern behaviour and cycles, you can be addicted to people,
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:26)
Hence, when we go back to talking about pattern behaviour and cycles, you can be addicted to people,
Melanie Little (45:35)
you know, and go through people.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:35)
You know, and go through people.
Go through people.
Melanie Little (45:42)
Mm-hmm. So where you might have an anxious attachment style, you know, attaching yourself to a person until that just doesn't
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:43)
So where you might have an anxious attachment style, you know, attaching yourself to a person until that just doesn't
Melanie Little (45:55)
work for you anymore and then move on to the next person.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:55)
work for you anymore and then move on to the next person.
Melanie Little (46:01)
And so there is relationship addiction and, you know, sex and love addiction.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:01)
And so there is relationship addiction and, well, you know, sex and love addiction.
There is is
Sorry, it's easier to mute for sure. We get addicted to people, but is that not always an addiction to one person? Is it partly about flicking from person to person? Is someone in that someone chasing a feeling?
Melanie Little (46:40)
I mean, it could be, but I think mostly what perpetuates that sort of pattern is an attachment wound. So if you didn't feel that you had a secure bond with your primary caregiver as a young child, you may always be seeking, you know, trying to recreate or trying to get what you never got when you were growing up.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:40)
It could be, but I think mostly what perpetuates that sort of pattern is an attachment wound. So if you didn't feel that you had a secure bond with your primary caregiver as a young child, you may always be seek you know, trying to recreate or trying to get what you never got when you were growing
up.
You keep trying to fill in the gap. That's why we get stereotypes like daddy issues or mommy's boys, things like that.
Yeah.
Melanie Little (47:22)
Yeah.
And so even when we s when we look at it and and we
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:23)
And so even when we s when we look at it and and
Melanie Little (47:27)
see sex addiction, for example, it's not really that the person's addicted to sex. They've just kind of made the connection that, if I act out in this way, then I gain connection.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:28)
We see sex addiction, for example; it's not really that the person's addicted to sex. They've just kind of made the connection that, if I act out in this way, then I gain connection.
Melanie Little (47:41)
And so the drug is connection, but it's so brief and not real that they try again.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:41)
And so the drug is connection, but it's so brief and not real that they try again.
Is it not real because it's so brief?
Melanie Little (47:58)
I think because that's not true intimacy. It's not true connection. You know, sex and intimate connection are two very different things.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:58)
I think because that's not true intimacy. It's not true connection. You know, sex and intimate connection are two very different things.
Melanie Little (48:10)
And you can have both at the same time, but
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:10)
We can have both at the same time, but
That's surprising me in some ways, and anyone who knows me well might be surprised by that. I've heard that women interpret a feeling of closeness when getting physically close to someone, but I heard that men don't interpret it that way. Is that right?
Melanie Little (48:39)
Well, I I don't I hate to generalise, but I do see I think that men view
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:39)
Well, I don't hate to generalise. But I do see, I think, that men view you
Melanie Little (48:51)
you know, sex differently than women, and women tend to be more emotional.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:52)
know, sex differently than women and women are more tends to be more emotional
Melanie Little (49:00)
And so the connection for women
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:00)
And so the connection for women
Melanie Little (49:04)
When it's emotional connection is more meaningful than actually having
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:04)
When the emotional connection is more meaningful than actually having
Melanie Little (49:09)
a sexual encounter.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:09)
a sexual encounter.
Absolutely. I'd like to broaden things as we wind up the recording, and I'm so keen to record again with you because some of these cycles, even how we detach from people, all of these things, I'm going to assume that that can manifest in similar ways in work as well.
And in how we connect with community, how we connect with anybody, but also how we self-soothe ourselves. And some of the things that I would like to hear about when there's more time it's what we can do instead of some of the addictions. Because people get hooked on things that seem, well, there are the obvious
not good ones like the drugs and alcohol, but then we get hooked on things that are good until we're doing too much of it. And especially turning into a workaholic. We I I could be looking at that so much because exercise is a thing for sure, but also work. We need to work, or we like to create something, but then we get hooked on more and more and more.
So as we wind up though, what's one thing the listener can keep in mind right now if they suspect they might be in a cycle that's not serving them?
The thing that I would impart to anybody that finds themselves in an unpleasant or unwanted cycle is that breaking the cycle begins with awareness.
Melanie Little (50:51)
The thing that I would impart to anybody that finds themselves in an unpleasant or unwanted cycle is that breaking the cycle begins with awareness.
And that is gonna be uncomfortable.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:07)
And that is gonna be uncomfortable.
Melanie Little (51:10)
But it's so important. And so pushing through the discomfort to get to a place where you can start enacting some different thought patterns or behaviours is really important.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:11)
But it's so important. And so pushing through the discomfort to get to a place where you can start enacting some different thought patterns or behaviours is really important.
Amazing. Start with awareness. Melanie Little, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Melanie Little (51:31)
Thank you. This is fun.
Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:32)
Thank you. This is fun.