Breaking Unwanted Cycles: Addiction, Spirituality & Authentic Relationships with Melanie Little

Transcript 2

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Melanie Little is back on the podcast again, and we are going to start by looking at spirituality and how that fits in with what we have been talking about.

Melanie Little (00:11)

Yeah, so I'm excited about this topic. This is something that I have found to be so important in the healing process, you know, and so as I learn about human beings, just the human condition and

psychology and then the neurobiology that goes into all the stuff that I do when I work with clients. What I have noticed is that there is a large spiritual component in the healing process. And you know, unfortunately, where a client is maybe deficient in that area, they get very stuck. So I'm glad we're talking about this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:54)

They get stuck if they are not thinking about spirituality, if they are not applying spirituality to what they are journeying out of. And how do we need to really define spirituality as well here because

Melanie Little (01:09)

Set here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:10)

I have recorded with some people on the show who are outright religious and some who are yogis. And then there are people in the world who are just.

believing that something is out there, or maybe all they cling to right now is gratitude journals, but what is spirituality for you?

Melanie Little (01:29)

Well, I believe that we are physical creatures and we all have a spiritual side, meaning that there's something within us that is not maybe physically tangible but works within us, and you know, it also, I believe that spirituality is a connection.

And I don't want to maybe I don't want to define it beyond that, except I do want to make the distinction that I am not talking about religion. Because religion is an institution that's created by man. We've put so much structure around it. And I think in our modern world, we've also

tried to make religion fit us so much that it's kind of lost its connection with or its

For a lot of people, this is not absolute, but for a lot of people, I think there's a spirituality missing in the religion that's practised. Because there's a striving for, you know, what's comfortable, what feels like it fits, and you lose that. So

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:44)

Is driving for what's comfortable.

In what way?

Melanie Little (02:46)

Well, so when we look at religious institutions, I think over time it's evolved. And because in modern society we have, and through the industrialisation of you know all of our I think all of our infrastructure in all of the institutions that kind of operate in our modern world.

We try to be efficient, we try to be dualistic, and we try to be comfortable. And sometimes in what I see as spirituality, much involves being in a space of uncertainty. That's not comfortable.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:37)

Like that so much, the uncertainty, because I have I grew up with traditional religion, and then I explored a version of spirituality that can provide a framework for anyone, regardless of what they believe in, because that framework was given to me when I discovered yoga.

And whether I look at those or anything in between, I would say that what people often skip these days is the sitting in discomfort, and the right and the practices that can guide us will not bend to the instant gratification culture.

That we're all in now.

Melanie Little (04:28)

Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes, so we are speaking about the same thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:33)

We

are, we are. And I like being very, very sensitive on this show because, firstly, I am making a point of not saying what I believe, but also being very compassionate to whatever someone else believes. Because to remind the audience at this point, your specialty is dealing with addictions or also anyone breaking cycles.

Because we get stuck in any sort of cycles. Is that how to put

Melanie Little (05:00)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:01)

it?

Melanie Little (05:01)

Yes. Yes. And you know, with the spirituality piece, the way that I see it in that work is that we need to be able to tap into something beyond our human limits in the healing process. You know, when you've exhausted everything that is tangible or within your purview.

That's what the stuckness is. And it's not really stuck, but if you don't know or if you don't acknowledge that you have a spiritual side, that's it, you know? And so the resources are limited.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:41)

They are. I am reminded of the book Russell Brand wrote years ago. Do you remember that one? The book about addiction?

Melanie Little (05:50)

Did not read that book, but I would love to hear your thoughts about that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:55)

Okay. I read that, I think, because I was just following Russell Brand at the time and I wasn't heavily addicted to anything, but the language of it spoke to me because it was simplified, and sometimes that's what we need. He translated the twelve steps into Russell talk. You can imagine what that's like.

Melanie Little (06:18)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:19)

Yeah.

And a couple of things stood out to me. He looked at the spirituality side as simply trusting something greater than yourself because something bigger than me could surely do more than what I can do. And it was simplified that much. I let go. That was powerful for me because I definitely grew up with

Only the word religion more than spirituality, I'd say that the word spirituality didn't come up so much when I was young. And there was essentially a set of rules. And I knew that there were rules that I couldn't possibly fit, no matter what I did, because of my circumstances. So that disconnected me from exploring anything beyond myself. But when he put it that simply, it wasn't

Are you going to fit all of the traditions you grew up with? It's just, are you going to hand this to something bigger than yourself? And he did broaden it to include the natural world. I look beyond only the natural world, but it gave grace to those who can only emotionally handle looking at that much. You look out where I am; there are some beaches. You look out from the beach, and it's bigger than you.

It's that simple. Look out at the water that is bigger than you. And in some areas, you might be near a whole lot of mountains. Same thing. Over here, we have the Blue Mountains you look at in some spots over there. You know, this is bigger than me. And things are forming. You know, the world is doing its thing regardless of what you do. So, you know that something is at play.

And the other thing that stood out to me from that book is I will I will good place this and use a different word because I don't want to have to click the explicit button on this episode just for one word. But so he had a line: can you unfudge yourself? Have you tried unfudging yourself? How did that go so far? And

we know what that really means. I maybe I'll do an explicit version, but no, I don't think that's needed. And that that spoke to okay, you need other people as well as you need something beyond people, perhaps.

Melanie Little (08:52)

Yes. Yes. We are all there's a connection. Yes. And so connecting with other people is that's bigger than us. And I love that he talks about connecting with something big or just recognising that there's something bigger than you.

Because in the twelve-step recovery programs, that's a huge part of that program is accepting that the world doesn't revolve here, which I mean in addiction, people tend to be very self-centred because you're always looking for that immediate gratification we're talking about, you know, when you're in active addiction. So going into a recovery program, a 12-step recovery program, is that's one of the hardest hurdles. And there's a paradox in it, in that, you know, recognising your powerlessness is where you draw on power.

To overcome the addiction. And that's the beginning of the spiritual piece of the 12-step program. And it very much points you right away in the direction of recognising that there is a power greater than yourself, you know. And then the language throughout the 12-step programs is a God of your understanding. And I think it's important. I recognise the importance of that in the work that I do because there are so many people that have.

have been wounded, you know, that have spiritual wounds or maybe wounded through religion. And like you were speaking about, you know, having all of the rules, you know, the legalism in the church.

Has hurt a lot of people in a way that they have maybe moved away from anything that looks or sounds like religion. And so those 12-step programs are built to be a safe place to explore what it looks like for you.

You know, what does your spirituality look like for you? What is your higher power? How do you perceive that? And how can you relate to that? So yeah, that's one of the really genius elements of the 12-step programs. And I try to really echo that in the work that I do because I want people to be- I want to meet people where they are and be that safe person and just offer them a place to explore, you know, that part of themselves. And I do need to say, I know you said you're not going to share what your belief is. When I write, I do write from a place of Christianity because that is the way that I have been brought up, and that's where, you know, that's my belief. But also I think that very often Christians get it wrong. And so that's a big claim that I make in the writing that I do because it's important I think for humility to be a b a big part of how Christians and anybody, you know, this is true for anybody, but but Christians walking humbly in their beliefs so that they can be safe for people to come and explore that side of themselves and be be approachable and not come across as legalistic or righteous or you know those things that scare people away. I think that's super important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:44)

Absolutely. We need a way to not be so legalistic, and that's the best way to put it. I applaud you for embracing your beliefs and sharing it. Where I take an approach here, and look, this is an interesting journey for me talking publicly about my beliefs because I've had the podcast for what's not even a year yet. It'll be a year in August. And I just feel so sensitive that I want everybody to feel welcome. But also I am very aware of how I comment on religion because I'll say this much. And this is a positive thing. In recent months, I have encountered, and to some extent, there's someone in mind I can think of from the past year or two, but also other people in recent months. I've encountered the most kind, compassionate, welcoming people who happen to be renowned religious leaders. And I have so much sensitivity to that. I can tell you that one of the people I trust the most in the whole world happens to be in great religious leadership. But I also know that I'm talking on a podcast where anyone can listen to it. And I don't want to- I don't want to ever have a spiritual practice, be it within that space, or also I went to a yoga studio 600 times, and it was so private. I would get on that mat, and this was just me being a person at a time when I was doing still locally some public things. I respect the privacy of a spiritual practice. However, it's nice to go ahead and applaud that spiritual communities on both sides are getting it right at the moment. It's incredible. There's

Melanie Little (14:46)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:47)

So much mending going on at the moment because I told you that I grew up with very much a set of rules and a mould to fit, but I don't think it's like that anymore. And this is very empowering because yes, when people are getting out of any cycle, we need that. We need community of any sort. But also when we are bringing our recovery to something greater than ourselves, it's crucial to not do that alone because we become our own echo chamber.

Melanie Little (15:23)

Yes. Very much so. Yeah, there's a saying, and I hope I don't get it wrong. I think it's something like the most dangerous place for a recovering addict or for an addict to be is in their head. You know, so when we sit and we're by ourselves and we're not connected with other people, and we're not having conversations and saying out loud what's going on is dangerous. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:48)

Is it? So are our own thoughts our I was going to say our enemies, but are our own thoughts holding us back?

Melanie Little (15:57)

Sometimes I mean I just I think that that what that saying says to me is and and I did get it wrong I'm sure but by the way, I think that when we are just sitting with our thoughts and what's going on on in our heads, it can take a certain shape and it it it's just us, it's just our voice, it's not being spoken and it's not being challenged and it's not connecting with anybody outside of ourselves.

So we're limiting ourselves to, like you said, our own little echo chamber. And yeah, it's a dangerous place to be. You want to be challenged. You want to be able to connect with other people who have experience beyond what your experience is.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:42)

Absolutely.

And we need to approach it with raw honesty. And that requires a safe space. Let's face it, I approached my spiritual practice through the lens of, okay, I do things in front of people, but my spirituality is going to be separate from that, or at least have a separate aspect. But I would say at this point in history, most people have an element of feeling public in some way.

Because we're all on the internet. We all everybody has an Instagram or whatever they use. And of course, there's even- I've heard there's a sense of secrecy or privacy around those who explore the 12 steps. I've never done that, but whatever it is, would you agree that we need a space where we can be totally honest and raw? And we're not

This is not insta-worthy transformation here, right?

Melanie Little (17:41)

Right. Yes. Yes. Honesty, truth, authenticity- it's so important, and it is I think it is at risk of, you know, we're at risk of losing that, and we're feeling some of that because I'm gonna tell you, people that I talk to, the people that come into my office, they don't trust anything. Nothing is real, you know? And I think that that's one of the negative sides of our Instagram world.

There is, I think, there are benefits. But it's interesting how I have a love-hate relationship with social media. Because yes, it is a it's something that we all have this public exposure, like you're saying. It's part of our world today; in fact, as a writer, I've discovered that I am expected, in order to be published or to be represented by a publishing agent, I am expected to have a pretty significant platform. And I spent about a year and a half completely offline because of all of the, you know, like, you know, there's so many reasons. That's why I stopped myself. There's so many reasons, but

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:05)

It's okay.

Melanie Little (19:06)

Just the attention, you know, that I was losing my focus, and I felt my anxiety getting worse. And just moment by moment, you know, I go from sad to happy to how cute. Then, you know, you just your emotions are all over the place. And I was having a difficult time, you know, being focused and attuned. So I thought, you know what, I'm gonna get off the online platforms. And then I, you know, wrote this manuscript that I'm trying to get published and found out I need to have a significant presence. So there's a love-hate relationship there. But kind of bringing it back to your point, I think that there is a way for us to be online and to be courageous in being authentic and showing our true selves and being just being in truth. And it's not gonna be necessarily the popular stance right away, but I think we can evolve to that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:10)

What's not the popular estates getting authentic?

Melanie Little (20:13)

Being authentic. I thought that might sound very biased. It probably is very biased. But

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:23)

Why?

Melanie Little (20:25)

because I in in creating content and putting content online and having a pretty academic body of work that I'm that I'm you know, really trying to promote

I'm thoughtful in what I create and how I try to, you know, I I believe in being authentic, I believe in being in truth, and I really put a lot of thought into everything I put out. And then I watch people do things that seem very superficial or lacking substance, or like you're saying, like it's it's inauthentic and it is very much liked, you know, and so it is tempting, you know, there's a temptation out there to kind of gravitate towards that sort of thing, but I absolutely believe that we need to present ourselves exactly, you know, and that's there's there's a self-acceptance in that and being willing to present myself exactly who I for exactly who I am, say what I believe, what I, you know, what's going on in this head, and let it land however it's gonna land.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:31)

Bring that debate to you or that balance, as much as we don't like that word these days. And this will land somewhere with you because you are in the profession that you do. A few months ago, I was in serious grief. Something had changed beyond my control. And I wanted to respect the privacy of everybody involved.

And because of that, I wasn't mentioning that online, but also I was trying to maintain the positivity of the podcast. I was trying to show the world I'm still taking a step forward after another, despite whatever is going on. In a way, I was trying to fake it till I made it with my energy.

To the point where I fainted when I was recording an episode. However, yeah, yeah.

Melanie Little (22:26)

My goodness.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:29)

I was recording with a Texan philanthropist, and I've told this story, I think, on one other episode. My MacBook was on a shelf, and I liked how the angle was better. I didn't have a table at the height that I wanted, so it was on this shelf. So I'm standing for the whole thing. And then I was feeling a little bit off, but I hadn't fainted in what 10 years, whatever. So I just kept talking. I thought I'll just get through this. And there's a video somewhere on Riverside where I'm just going pale white and passing out. I felt embarrassed. But that goes to show we can't. I know that something was happening for me emotionally. But we can't fake everything forever, but we do need to. In my situation, I knew it was right to respect people's privacy and also to show optimism. It's great we're exploring the question of how we present ourselves online. Around that time, before or after that, a friend told me that I present such a great life online.

But then I'm saying that I'm not feeling right. Yes, because I had to really ask, do you want the world to see all of this? No, I can't. I literally, even if I wanted to show everybody the ugliest of the uglies, I couldn't.

With that in mind, we're also creating a brand. You have your personal brand for your writing, and I have the brand for my podcast. We all been conditioned in this culture to all behave like a business and a brand, which means present yourself a certain way. But we still need to be authentic because we are connecting. I mean the authenticity in the podcast is part of the secret sauce that we're having a real conversation. We're not holding much back. It means whoever is listening is going to see themselves in something that we say. The authenticity is needed. Do you think there's a bit of a fine line? We have to present ourselves in the best light, but still be real.

Melanie Little (24:42)

absolutely. Yeah. Because you know

I think there's power in our testimony. And so sharing those vulnerable things about our story and our overcoming, that's important. But also it's, you know, Brené Brown talks a lot about this. Being too vulnerable, your vulnerability out there too much, can also be a negative, you know. And it's important for us to have that balance and to discern and be selective about what it is that we do share and who we're sharing it with. You know, and that kind of goes back to, you know, just basic boundaries as well. Yeah. I mean, I share a lot of my story in my writing. It's just part of my style of writing, and I have a lot of story. But I've learned that there are elements, there are pieces of the story that fit in certain places at certain times, depending on what it is that I'm, you know, what it is that I'm intending to bring. Like, for example, here, what is it that I'm trying to speak about, and who am I connecting with? You know, it would be weird for me to come here and just tell all of my, you know, all of my dirty laundry. So I mean, I think that we have to be, you know, we have to respect ourselves and respect the people around us and exercise, like you're saying, some restraint about how much of that detail we share, for sure. I do also think though, that being vulnerable, and for example, coming on here, I think I told you one of the first things I told you was, let me just warn you, I have anxiety. Because my words, I have to really stop my I could sit here, and I could say a whole bunch of words that aren't going to get my point across. So I have to stop myself, and I have to really think about, okay, what is it that I want to say? Because my anxiety can take me all over the place. That's just something about me that I know that I shared with you, and that I'm I think that just by saying that, probably somebody out there is going, yeah, girl, that's me, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:05)

Are you saying that

your anxiety leads you to go on your tangents?

Melanie Little (27:11)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:12)

Interesting. Interesting. I tend to find sometimes on the podcast every tangent elaborated on the theme someone was exploring, but I know a tangent can get pretty random. That's fair. Is it anxiety or is it also the nervousness of recording on a podcast?

Melanie Little (27:33)

Probably two that also. Yes. Yeah. For sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:36)

That's part of why I like to keep it so relaxed. And we can talk about podcasting for a second. Remind me, is this your first podcast? It is. I

Melanie Little (27:47)

Yes, it is. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:49)

I've shaped this just how I want it to be. I don't know how every major podcast host actually creates and records. I don't know if some people do three hours of recording and then chop it back. Who knows?

I actually I can tell you my first podcast I ever appeared on, start of last year. It was it came out as about half an hour of episode at the end of it. But someone just found me online, and I thought, why not? Sure. So I show up, log in, and next thing I know, someone is asking about how I lost weight. And I was just

Melanie Little (28:29)

Goodness.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:30)

Yeah, I thought, sure, okay, well it was all about my healthy eating. Okay. I mean, I was a community speaker, and I thought, sure, I look back at it, and it actually came out okay. I just talked for half an hour. I can talk, okay. And it showed me that's how easy it is. But I get guests on the show, and this will be a reassurance for a moment for anyone who's thinking of being on this show or another one.

It's a lot more simple. I get some people asking which questions will I ask. My main boxes I try to tick are let people know what you do professionally, let people know what your personal story is that helped you to grow. For you, it's the addiction and something everybody can learn. If we get those three things.

Then we get familiar with the person who's talking, and we learn something from it. It can be that simple, but

Melanie Little (29:28)

That's great.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:28)

It's that easy. And the cool thing about having this being so conversational, I can tell you, look, for so many, many, many years, I was doing seven-minute presentations, and that's all great. And we've all had those.

We've all seen the formality of presenting at work, wherever, or even if you're talking. Everybody talks to the phone these days, and that's all great for the social media coverage. But having a conversation, you get so real. I mean, we're all from anywhere in the world, and we just we always I can tell you- we always see ourselves in each other's stories every single time.

Melanie Little (30:11)

Yeah, I love that. Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:12)

So you do?

Melanie Little (30:14)

I love that. I love your format.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:16)

It's great fun. I want to look at your story a little bit more for a moment. You shared that you did have your own addiction. How did you end up in addiction?

Melanie Little (30:26)

Grew up in a household where my father had an addiction to alcohol, and there was a lot of substance abuse in my household growing up. and so

You know, I don't want to tell my parents' story so much; I just want to honour them, but I will tell you that there was a long period of time, many, many years, until I was fifteen, that our household was unsafe. And I was the oldest of three siblings. I mean, I have two younger sisters. I have two stepsisters also, but this part of my childhood was my two biological sisters who are younger than me. And so being the oldest, I took on a lot of responsibility. And part of what I remember growing up is that I had decided I would I carried a lot of anger for our situation, and I decided I would never be an addict or an alcoholic. You know, I would never have that problem. And it's so interesting how we and this is where cycles come in because there were so many things working within me in my ecosystem, in my messages that I couldn't tell you, you know, where there's so much in our unconscious psyche that directs our behaviour and our attitudes and our nuanced connections, and you know, just all of that. And I ended up repeating the same kind of cycle very much in my own life. And it started off as I think many people do in adolescence. I was just experimenting.

But very quickly, very quickly, I was drinking alcoholically. It was not a gradual process for me. And, you know, I found myself there surprisingly because I thought being a survivor as a child and so responsible for, you know, so much that I shouldn't have been responsible for, I thought I had control over a lot of things that I did not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:48)

Fascinating. You thought you had control. Do we ever really have control?

Melanie Little (32:53)

The older I get, the more convinced I am that I am powerless over pretty much everything.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:00)

Pretty much.

You started experimenting with things and then ended up addicted. Are you saying you were just curious what this drink like? Was it like that?

Melanie Little (33:10)

I think it was more trying to fit in, you know, because the other kids were doing it, and the moment that I drank, I felt a relief.

I didn't have to worry and care about everything that I was always carrying. I didn't know what that was like. I didn't know what it was like not to have the burden of the responsibilities that I had in the household and the stress that I was always feeling about it. I thought that was normal. And I think that was part of it.

But part of it was just, yeah, I mean the other kids are doing it, I look cool, now I feel like I can fit in and and talk to them and have fun and I don't have to worry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:54)

There's an element of perhaps social anxiety there. Totally.

Melanie Little (33:58)

Yes, well, and also I will say beyond social anxiety, anybody that has grown up in a household like that probably knows. I mean, if you look at family systems theory, I was the hero child. I was taking responsibility, I was overachieving, I was doing things that I shouldn't have had to do, but I did because of the way our family operated. And so anyone that's been in that position will know that I lost I lost the the question you asked me. I'm sorry, I want to make sure I'm answering your question. Do you remember? Okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:31)

It's okay, just let it go wherever it goes. I'll be real with you. If this is encouraging,

very occasionally I forget my start, and I let the destination be what it becomes.

Melanie Little (34:43)

Yeah, but I carried a lot of responsibility and that stress that comes from it and then it was just it was normal, and like the dysfunction I thought everybody else had in their lives.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:02)

I can relate to that so much.

I think that in my version of that, part of the social anxiety was everybody else seems fine, and maybe they still of course; everybody has issues in life, but you get social and you think people aren't in crisis after a crisis. The people around me are not completely burned out or dealing with odd dynamics, whatever it is, that there's an isolated feeling. And this is why it's so important to share what we can share within appropriate boundaries. I wonder if that gets tied up in the social anxiety, but also the cultural just the cultural norm as well.

You said that drinks, well, drinks would have just been around when you were being social. I have seen that over the years, and it's great to explore that for a second with you. More recently, I was getting social a little bit, and yes, there were some communities where, okay, there's a bar, but also now I will be so delicate here to just say I was in a relationship where neither side had an addiction going on. It's not like that, but I was back in that space of okay, go to the pub and have a drink with the meal at the end of the day. Those sorts of habits. And suddenly I was realising that I was having a drink a few more times in the week, not in an excessive way, not in a way that I couldn't stop, but suddenly that was creeping into the normal every day in a way that hadn't really been happening before that. Do you think that I wonder how normal it is for people to end up possibly in an addiction or just in a habit they didn't have before simply because it's there?

Melanie Little (37:05)

Goodness, that's a great question. And this is getting into a controversial opinion about addiction. I'm gonna tell you my view of this question, and this topic has changed over time because initially, you know, going into the rooms, the rooms being recovery, 12 step recovery, it can tend to be very the word for it pure puristic maybe i don't know if that's the right word for it but like you know everybody believes something about addiction but you hear these same things about you know the way our brain it gets triggered and the way that we don't we're not able to stop and we don't have control and it kind of paints a picture of most addictions looking the same. Well, the literature actually doesn't say that necessarily. The literature talks about different types of alcoholism presentation. And so, you know, that's where the debate comes in. But what I will tell you that, just from my own experience working with people who struggle with addiction and then having my own experience, I believe there are many different flavours of addiction. I think that you can develop a habit of overdrinking, and then you can arrest that with a structured program and be on your way. You know, you can live life.

Happily, and that can appear pretty easy from the outside watching somebody, you know, experience that sort of a transformation in their recovery. While some people become so overcome by the addiction that they feel absolutely out of control and powerless and don't believe that they have the power.

To make any choices. And we could dive into, like, the neurobiology and everything behind it because there's some truth to that, but there's also truth in that when you know that it's problematic, you have a choice to continue going one way or to stop. And that sounds very simple, but it is the first choice. How you go about doing it can look very different depending on the way that that alcoholism or that addiction has presented itself with you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:59)

It's different. Why?

Melanie Little (39:59)

I've tried to be very careful about how I address that, but does that answer your question? Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:03)

Is that about making it scientifically accurate or just picking the right words?

Melanie Little (40:09)

I don't wanna minimise it because there are a lot of people where I mean, this is life or death to people who are in recovery, and more so for some than others. I happen to be one of those who didn't traditionally hit bottom like a lot of people in the rooms. And so I tend to be very respect. I respect them, you know. I respect everybody's experience of this. That's why I'm being careful because my experience was that my internal conviction, my internal conflict, was where my bottom was. I didn't lose my job and lose my family and, you know, end up in a hospital or a detox or anything like that, and I got sober going to AA. A lot of people have a very different story, and everyone's story is important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:06)

Absolutely.

Do some people get so extreme that something dangerous happens?

Melanie Little (41:13)

Yes. Yeah. I mean, you know, some people die from addiction. And alcoholism is one of the ugliest addictions to watch somebody lose their life to. Yeah. But I think I think part of your question, though, is it takes me to the biopsychosocial model, which is where we can look at, like, what are the different risk factors. Are you familiar with it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:43)

No, no, I wanted to hear about this.

Melanie Little (41:46)

Do you okay?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:47)

Yeah.

Melanie Little (41:48)

So there are different risk factors that create different ways that the alcoholism or addiction presents itself to people, and also the complexity in which it takes them over. You know, when someone is in bondage with addiction, it's really hard when they come into recovery, or you know, when they come into counselling or a treatment centre, to predict you can't predict who's gonna be successful and who's not, or how long it's gonna take for them to recover.

But there are some key things that we look at. So biologically, they might have certain risk factors, psychologically they might have certain risk factors, and then social risk factors. And depending on what that looks like makes a difference in how complex this thing is for them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:40)

What sorts of risk factors do people need to be aware of? And can we improve our risk, so to speak? Like perhaps being more connected in community, anything like that?

Melanie Little (42:54)

Absolutely, yes. So biological risk factors, I mean, my husband and I are both in recovery. So we have had many conversations with our sons about their propensity; they are at high risk just because of that.

So we want them to know that. And so we've had lots of conversations. We don't expect them never to drink or to swear off, you know, alcohol completely, but they know that they have to be responsible, and we talk about boundaries around it and how to drink responsibly and safely. So that's a conversation that we have. So biological risk factors could simply be, you know, it's hereditary, and it runs in your family.

And then the psychological piece is it there's there was a lot there. But if you had a traumatic upbringing, or if there's complex trauma in your history, that's already going to be something that is that complicates the situation, but also

Some people just have they're just born with imbalances, or you know, mental illness, and that's another complication. And that can get really I mean you know, when you have when you're stacked with these risk factors, it gets very complex, and you know this can be a very difficult thing to overcome.

And then socially, I mean, I think we've talked about some of the social risk factors already, but just being, you know, in a underserved population or, you know, growing up in an environment where there's a lot of conflict or crime can put you at risk. So there's a lot there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:50)

An underserved population, let's look at that for a second. What does that mean?

Melanie Little (44:55)

God could mean a lot of things. Yeah, that could be a lot of things. But really, you know, if you, I mean just in poverty, you're presented with a lot of difficulties, a lot of stresses that somebody else might not be presented with, you know.

If you're in a survival stance all the time, that's stressful and traumatic. You know, and that's gonna contribute.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:25)

Interesting, interesting. That is clicking with me in some way because what I have observed about the world in the past half a decade is just looking at the survival state for a second. We all got out of COVID, and there was naturally whatever form of stress we had with whatever was going on then. We got out of COVID.

We all globally tried to learn how to exist after that. And then in the few years after getting back into the world, there has been an economic shift. I trust it might be like this where you live in Texas. Over here, I can tell you, anybody from any walk of life, whether they are a business owner or they are working for someone, pretty much anybody I have talked to in the past year or so is concerned about the cost of everything, and it is a form of stress. I am so concerned. This is why you are one of the most useful guests. You're looking at things that everybody needs to hear because the survival I absolutely agree there are specific neighborhoods that are not served they don't have the resources the solutions i can tell you i was i was on the coast where there were statistically less jobs it's clear you can look at a website and get the proof that will feel obvious that there will be more jobs in Sydney than in other towns, okay, or other cities. So it's great to be back in Sydney. But so yes, there are areas that have it even worse. But in some form as well, whoever is listening to this will be feeling the crunch in some way.

We almost need to use this opportunity to caution everybody that, do you think it's in those moments when people are feeling the crunch, so to speak, that they end up on a bit of a slippery slope, at least at the top of that slope, whether they start rolling down it or not.

Melanie Little (47:42)

I mean, they can, yes. Some people just have resilience built into them, you know. Which I find fascinating. But also, yes, they are susceptible to being drawn into something that is. I mean, you know, if you can put yourself in that mindset, if all things are stacked against you or seemingly stacked against you, and you feel like you don't have control over anything, the thing that you have control over is not to care. And so you turn it off; you can turn it off with alcohol or drugs. So that definitely puts them in a position to be on a slippery slope.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:26)

Is

it emotionally checking out?

Melanie Little (48:28)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:29)

This is joining all the dots so much. And I wanted to detour. See, I love a tangent. I'll embrace the tangents.

Melanie Little (48:38)

Okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:39)

Because detouring from here, we need to look at addiction to work. That's going to be a slippery slope these days as well. A lot of people, at least what I've seen near me, a lot of people have two jobs, maybe work for themselves and work for someone else, whatever they need to do, or people are working countless hours for their business, whatever it might be. And it seems like I wanted to go back for a moment to the addictions we described or identified yesterday, where it looks socially acceptable on the surface. And of course, your first beer or wine will be socially acceptable, sure.

But there are the other things. We talked about exercise as well. So work is under that umbrella of it looks like a good thing to do loads of it. How do we know when something is going too far?

Melanie Little (49:32)

I get that question a lot, and my answer is you look at your motivation.

Because whatever your motivation is is going to tell you, you know, what's your agenda? What's your agenda behind this? Are you doing this to escape something or to avoid something? Are you doing it because you're propelled by fear? If you're motivated by fear, that's something to look at.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:59)

Ooh. So the fear leads people to doing too much of something.

Melanie Little (50:04)

A lot of times fear, and that's one of my favourite questions to ask people is what is it that you're afraid of? And then you just get the deer in the headlights, God, she can see through me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:15)

You really can.

Melanie Little (50:18)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:18)

We need to learn these influences, like the fear. Nobody talks about this. And I adore how you are looking at the thing behind the thing. Because who hasn't seen an advertisement that simply says Drink responsibly? And we all know there's this ideal of work-life balance, and we can debate whether balance is a thing or not, but people aren't looking at what's going on behind these habits. The fear.

Melanie Little (50:49)

Yes. Yeah.

And

The fear is sometimes hard to identify. It takes something to be willing to look at that. So I do want to say that. But yes, if you can look at your motivation or your motive, it's going to tell you something about why, if you can look at it honestly, it's going to tell you something about why you're doing it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:11)

Does that mean it's okay to do a lot of a healthy thing if it's for the right reasons?

Melanie Little (51:19)

I mean, I think so. You know, if you're so I love to exercise, let me just say, I have been on both sides of that where I think I've overdone it. And then I, you know, like right now, I work out maybe five times four or five times a week.

And my motivation is to stay healthy, to keep moving, to challenge myself to do something new that maybe I've been working on in the gym. Whereas, in you know, many years ago, I was motivated by my body image or maybe comparing myself to others or my fear that I would gain weight or, you know, just those reasons are not healthy reasons. I don't think I'm working out more or less than I was then, but it looks different.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:22)

It looks different. Feeling

Melanie Little (52:24)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:24)

Healthy is a positive reason. You mentioned the body image. We need to figure out where people can draw the line on that one. It's worth exploring that. I am just baffled by what I'm seeing on social media right now. I'm old-fashioned. I'm not getting into this whole Ozempic thing, Ozempic that everybody is talking about.

But there is still these extra trends appearing even now. You would think we would all be enlightened to reality, but yet these things are popping up. And there's still it's interesting. I talked with someone locally a couple of months ago who said that around here, if someone is, in his opinion, if someone is teaching yoga, they need the look. And I realised, okay, there are spaces where you need to look like Kim Kardashian as you sip your green smoothie, and then you are, and I don't subscribe to that conformity at all- but we all have a slippery slope of some sort, even if it's a little bit more old-fashioned than that. The scale, the scale, so many people perhaps know that they do need to lose weight, but then maybe take it too far. Is that how can we maintain a healthy relationship with healthiness?

Melanie Little (53:58)

Gosh, this might be another episode.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:01)

Okay, that's

a whole episode.

Melanie Little (54:03)

You know, here's what I will speak to on that. I don't

There are a lot of different reasons people take those medications. And there are a lot of good reasons to take them. And so I don't want to sound as if I'm judging that. I'm not, I'm not standing in judgment of using a particular medication. What I do caution people about is our culture, our culture of being thin or a certain body image, because it changes from time to time. There's a really great book, The Body is not an Apology by Sonia Renee. Sonia Renee Taylor. Here I'll show you.

Have you seen that? Good book.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:47)

Seven. Right up close. Okay, quite a cover.

Melanie Little (54:50)

I know. So yeah, she talks about this, but you know, it's cultural, and I think that it's important. One of the things in writing about cycles and our just our affinity for

Repetition, you know, we are drawn to what is repeated. We are drawn to the familiar. And when we see images of thin models and weight loss medications, this becomes normal.

There's what's called the mere exposure effect. And mere exposure, the mere exposure effect says that when we are repeatedly presented with something, we start to like it, and then we think we need it. And I mean, that's just really a very simplified explanation of that. But when we see these images over and over again and again, on social media, and now with AI, we can make it look however we want. And it starts to look normal; we think we need it. So that's the beginning of it. And if you are in a v a vulnerable place with your self-esteem or the way that you see yourself, you're vulnerable to that maybe showing up for you in an unhealthy way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:14)

I see, I see. As we wind up, I want to give a compassionate call to action to anybody who is listening. Maybe someone is either feeling a bit addicted to something or not. It could be chocolate; it could be whatever. Or maybe they're feeling fine and just want to make sure they are living responsibly. How can someone

Connect with community or friends or where should someone go to be authentic and keep themselves in check, but also just connect with the world beyond the self to stay on the right track.

Melanie Little (56:57)

The first thing that I would say is, I mean, I hate the answer that depends, but that depends. Because there's commun there are communities through church, there are communities through the gym, there are communities through, you know, community centres, but there are a lot of ways to connect with people. You just have to be willing to get out there. And that takes courage. None of this is none of this happens without getting uncomfortable and being courageous. And so stepping out and making that connection is important. There are, you know, a lot of resources through, you know, you're in Sydney, and I'm in Texas, so we have different communities.

But online you can search for communities. If it is addiction-related, there are a number of resources, and there's a 12-step program for everything. But also I think what I would say is it starts with you. So if you want to connect with authentic people, you have to be willing to be authentic.

And belonging actually comes from within us when we start to be willing to accept ourselves exactly for who we are and present that way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:23)

Melanie Little, thank you so much for talking on the podcast again.

Melanie Little (58:27)

Thank you. Glad to be here.