Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Welcome Alison Blackler from the UK. Welcome to the podcast.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (00:06)

thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to sharing this space with you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:11)

Absolutely. This is, this is great fun and we're going to learn so much. So you help people with their mindset and understanding their minds.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (00:22)

I do. I believe, and this is my own journey too, that when we understand a bit more about the relationship between the way that we're all wired, so the human brain, the way we're wired, and then you. Because we're all different, we've all got our different stories, we've got different things that have happened to us. And I believe that if we understand those two things together, then we've got an opportunity to be able to make changes and have whatever it is that you want in your life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:49)

the brain and our individual, unique minds. What should everybody know about our minds that we don't know?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (00:53)

Yes.

You know, it's a brilliant question because we all know that we're all different. So we know we constantly talk about how different we are. We look different. we we have different lots of different things. And yet we expect to process things similarly. So we're shocked when somebody has a different response or we don't behave in a way that somebody is expecting us to do, depending on which way we're looking at it. And I think the first thing is to remember, we really, really are all different.

we really do think differently. We see things differently, we interpret things differently. And I think remembering that, because we do know it, but when we are maybe a bit pressured or a little bit emotional, we completely forget that we are all very unique. And I think that's the bit that is so important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:51)

Does this mean that sometimes when we're dealing with difficult people, we might need to give them the benefit of the doubt?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (01:57)

I think so. think this is what's interesting, isn't it? What makes us think they're difficult is because they're different. that, you know, I mean, there are people who are difficult. You know, I think there are a few out there. But generally speaking, most people are doing things because they believe it's the right thing to do. And you might interpret that as difficult or unhelpful or rude. And actually, it's just their way. And I think when we ask ourselves the question, you know, how do, what do we get?

What do we need to do? It is about staying true to you. If you don't like something or you don't like someone, that's okay. But what are you gonna do? And I think that's where there's a lot of work that can be done differently that will improve things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:43)

That's a big question, isn't it? Because we all want different things and there's a lot of diversity now. It might sound obvious, but we have, we have so many different ways of living these days to name just a few. Some people are on the spectrum. Some people are advocating passionately throughout their everyday life for a cause and it's all they think about. And

Some of us are passionate about our lifestyles. mean, I'm a vegan and I don't mind what other people do, but people have all these reactions when they realize that I'm a vegan, but this, there are so many differences and divisions these days. And so do you, to what extent do you think we should find our people? And to what extent do you think we need to figure out how to navigate all these different groups that are trying to

coexist in one space.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (03:42)

Great question. I think finding your people is so important because we can then be ourselves. We can be vulnerable if we need to be. They'll get us. They'll get the journey that you're on. So I think, you know, people who are in whatever it is. So, you know, we find tribes in sport, don't we? We find tribes in different music. We try finding in food. So finding those people, I think there are some people out there who haven't found their tribe and they are...

lonely. But usually that will mean that they're trying to be something maybe that they're not. So they maybe are hanging out with people who are different. So that means they're not being themselves. They might be doing two things. They might be just not being themselves and not fulfilling them their potential. But I think the other thing that I see people doing is they're trying to fit in to the wrong people and that makes you miserable.

It generally makes you miserable. So again, it's being able to identify what you know, who you are. Loads of people don't know that. You know, it seems crazy, doesn't it? And someone says, do know who you are? And I work with lots of people who they have lost sight of themselves. They don't know who they are anymore. And that sounds absolutely crazy, but it's a truth. And I like to talk about the real stuff because there is a lot of noise out there.

a lot of stuff on social media giving the impression that it's easy and it's easy to find your tribe. No, it's not. But often it's not because you need to know who you are first. And I think that's a big question that a lot of people find quite difficult to navigate.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:23)

Does this mean we shouldn't simply find a group and then adapt to them? Do you think that it's more mentally healthy for us to look within and to say it more practically, figure out what feels comfortable and right and aligns with our values?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (05:43)

I think so. think that's the work, isn't it, is to be able to work out how am I showing up, who do I need to be with so that I can be the best I can. But I think there's always a balance and a relationship between being true to yourself and having the space and the people around you. But then there are times where it is the right thing to do to go somewhere new and to adapt and to try and like...

Because we're learning, know, every day we have got an opportunity to develop ourselves. And if we constantly just stay with our safety space, then that can be limiting. So it sort of sounds like I'm saying one thing and then completely contradicting myself. But I think sometimes we need to look at situations that we're all in and think, no, I'm going to stay with my people and I'm OK. And then other times you need to go, do you know what?

I need to push myself here. I need to find, and I think there's there's a balancing all the time for people to stop. And I think one of the things I notice about people is they make very quick decisions. No, can't do that. They're not my people. I'm not going. And I think there is a lot of power in just pausing, just, just pausing and thinking, right, for this situation, because every situation is different for this situation, what's the right thing for me to do? So we, I always encourage clients.

and people I talk to, to almost have like a little checklist in their mind. And sometimes you need to write the checklist down when you're about to go into a new situation. Your little checklist might be, this right for me? Do I need to push myself today? Do I actually need to not push myself today? And almost whatever would be on your checklist so that people are doing things that are right, because sometimes you do need to push yourself, but then there's other times where you need to say no and have a boundary.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:40)

Do you think that decision is even more important now that we're overloaded with information and media and extra busy lives? think probably all around the world, the economy is getting a little bit weird and often people have two or three jobs, two or three businesses, and there are so many single parent families or all sorts of things. People are just overloaded with anything. So I'm wondering, is the decision making?

becoming more than what it was years ago.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (08:12)

think you're right, there's more choice, there? There's more possibilities. We're aware of so much more, you know, with the internet and things. We know about things that we, like I was brought up without the internet. So, you know, I didn't know half the things that went on because we didn't know, you knew what you knew. So I think you're right that there is a lot more possibilities, a lot more to navigate. But I think the bit that matters the most is

still being able to identify what is right for you in all of that noise and all of that stuff, because otherwise it can be completely overwhelming. I mean, this is again, I think a trap that people fall into, because then we know so much. We're seeing life through a lens of, there's this and there's this, and I should be doing this and I must be doing this, and what about this over here? And actually, whoa, whoa. We are comparing ourselves, which is a... ⁓

pattern that the human brain does, not necessarily a good thing. We are looking at what everyone else is doing. are then doubting ourselves because we think, well, I'm not good enough because I'm not doing that thing. Or there's just so much that you then don't do anything or you become so overwhelmed that you end up not really doing things. I always say, you know, what's the one thing, the one small thing that you could do?

this week or today or tomorrow that's gonna just make that difference for you. And I think if we could all stay, you often hear me say, stay in your lane, be true to you, be aware. And all that stuff out here is potentially just noise. It's exciting, but it's also overwhelming.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:01)

That's a bit of wisdom we all need to bring our attention to. Focus on what you are doing because we could compare ourselves to so many people, but that's just excess worry, right?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (10:12)

Totally. Well, we're not comparing like for like, you know, I always say to people, if you are comparing in an aspirational way, so if you see somebody, I don't know, somebody's run a marathon and you think, do you know what? I want to run a marathon one day. Brilliant. Be aspirational towards that. But you've then got to decide how and what do you need to do for you to get to that point of doing that marathon or whatever it is that you want to do. If you just see somebody who's doing a marathon and you think, well, I couldn't do that.

Well, we you probably couldn't if you haven't started training. know, they love what that person will have done to get to that point is a lot. And we sometimes see that end goal as the, well, no, I couldn't do that. But that's because they've forgotten about all of the things that that person will have done to get to this point. And that's where comparing isn't healthy because we're not those people. We have to be.

true to ourselves so that we can decide, yep, that's what I wanna do. It doesn't have to be a marathon, obviously, could be whatever it is that's on your goal. And I believe that we all have dreams in us that we don't fulfill. And that's something that I love to encourage people to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:31)

to pursue their dreams.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (11:33)

Yeah, and it doesn't have to be a big thing, but to be able to, yeah, you know, I think we've all got things inside us that we would love to be able to do or would like to do. And I think for me, it's about finding those small steps towards these things rather than constantly be hard on yourself for not achieving the big thing. Let's be celebrating the small things that are towards the big thing that you might get to in the end.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:04)

Do you think that's part of being mentally healthy to set ourselves a progression of goals that we can reach, like steps going up towards the great goal?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (12:17)

I think that's absolutely critical. I really do. Because, you know, if you have a big goal to do something, tomorrow you could go and buy the envelope that you need to put the first application form in, I don't know, you know, that's probably a little daft example, but something really small, you're on your way. And people don't do that. They don't pause and think, do you know what? I've made a start. I've signed up to...

something that I'm going to do, which is a start towards the bigger thing. So yeah, having something to start with and be able to celebrate and then have some sort of steps that are going to go towards that thing. And then the other bit that I think is really important is some sort of accountability. Who are you going to tell so that they can be your cheerleaders, so that they can be the ones saying, how's it going? And, you know, without pressure, but otherwise, you know, we can probably all...

most people anyway can say that they're going to do something for themselves and then don't. But if you tell someone else or involve someone else you're more likely to do it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:26)

We say we're going to do all sorts of things. Absolutely. Years ago, I heard the silly phrase that that sort of person is a gonna, gonna do this, gonna do that, gonna do that. But it's true. We say things. So you're teaching that we need to find a personal cheerleader, not just a strict guide who's going to sort of check with you.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (13:29)

We do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:53)

failed or succeeded for the day but someone who's actually cheering you on and encouraging.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (13:59)

Yeah, somebody who's invested with you, who's going to help you, you know, and hold you if, if, you know, if a step in your plan doesn't quite work out, you need somebody who's got, because you generally, most, lot of us will be very hard on ourselves there, but you need somebody who's going to say, hey, but you've managed this bit, what's next? You know, come on, what's next? You know, sharing that, the joy or finding somebody that you can encourage each other. So they've got their little goal, you've got yours. And so.

you know, so it goes on, you know, we generally have lots of big ideas and then no idea how to get started. And again, what I'm, what I like to pay attention to is all the little traps in the brain that get in our way. So one of them is comparing ourselves. Everyone else is doing it. I'm not seeing things as a failure. That's another little trap that we find ourselves in. Not celebrating the small wins, thinking, ⁓ it's only that. Well, but the brain doesn't know it's only that.

It goes, we've done something, yay, let's celebrate.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:03)

So it sounds like we can cheer ourselves up by appreciating the small things.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (15:10)

Definitely. And from a brain perspective, it's like a muscle then you're stretching, you're taking yourself, I always call it the mind gym, you know, you're taking yourself to the gym. Because if you think of children, they are given feedback for everything. Even if they're colouring outside the lines, they're given feedback. Well done, you've done brilliant. So we spent years getting some level of feedback from somebody.

whether it's teachers, parents, aunties, whatever. And then when we become adults, stops. It literally stops. So we have to either find it from others or do it ourselves. And I think the brain is crying out for it because we had it for all those years and then suddenly it stops. And I think that's what's one of the problems is we as adults, we become very serious and we forget to give ourselves a mini high five.

we've managed to achieve something. The brain doesn't know, the subconscious mind particularly doesn't know the difference between you smashing a massive golf, completing a degree and you doing something really small. It actually doesn't have the context, it just has the celebration. So for me we are missing a trick if we don't give ourselves a minute, a second to go yeah good.

Well done me, I managed that thing. If you make yourself a really nice cup of tea or a nice meal, sometimes, as crazy as it sounds, you say to yourself, yeah, good me, you are giving your brain that sort of bit of nice food, really. It's like good food stuff.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:49)

seems to align with the gratitude that a lot of people are saying are the gratitude is actually necessary for our mental well-being for our happiness to prevent depression things like that just in general the public has been saying that gratitude is necessary for that.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (17:07)

I think so. I gratitude puts your attention on to something that has happened, is in front of you, is part of your life. You could be grateful for the beautiful sky or, you know, it doesn't have to be a thing. But what it helps you then do is it moves your attention away from maybe some of the things that aren't working so well. Because again, a trait of the human brain is to focus on the things that we haven't got or the things that are more negative. So being grateful, kind of

It gives you a, it's like a lens. It's like a torch. Put the torch on something I'm really grateful for right now, here today. And then you, you, again, it's that nice nice muscle stretching thing that the mind does. So, gratitude is, a really good thing. And they do say, you know, again, if you, if you're into kind of manifestation, you know, you're grateful for things, it'll bring more of those things in because

you're focused on those things. Because again, the brain is wired to notice things that are on your mind. So I always use the example, if you are moving house, you're looking to sell your house, you will suddenly see all the for sale signs. And they were always there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:23)

Yes.

In marketing courses, we're taught that people notice a food advertisement when they are hungry more than when they're not. So it sounds like the same thing applies for when you want something, you see it more.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (18:35)

There you go.

You do, you'll see more opportunities, you'll see, if you put your, again, when you talk about setting your goals, setting an intention that you'd like to do something, you'd like to run a marathon, let's say, and then suddenly you'll see a sign for a running group or you'll see something that's connected to it. They were always there, but we can only notice so many things. So for me, when we get really clear on what it is that we were hoping to achieve, suddenly.

this stuff that just seems to be like, ⁓ and people say, wow, I'm really shocked. It's a thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:19)

It sounds like part of how this manifestation works is simply focusing our attention in a cluttered world, focusing our attention on the things that will actually help us.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (19:29)

Yeah, will help us that matter to you, that are what is important to you. And if somebody else doesn't like it, that's okay. You know, we get very bothered by what others think of us. get, you know, I always ask in a group of people, if I'm doing this, you know, this sort of topic in a workshop, you know, one of the first things you want to ask is who here worries about what everyone else is thinking. And because most people put their hand up and then you look around and say, well,

Why are we doing that? Because everyone else is worried about what you're thinking, not what you're doing. So, you know, just. We are, yeah, we again, it's part of the human brain. It's it's because we are social animals. We're part of, know, we want to be part of the troop and the fear of being rejected. Is is huge, so we we be.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:03)

absolutely were all worried about it.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (20:21)

worried about what everyone else is doing or thinking but you know everybody else is just doing the same or they will think something different because they are different they see the world differently so they don't think you running that marathon is a good idea because they wouldn't do it but then putting a dampener on you is where people say well I won't do it then and then I'm always interested in what happens then to your inner

kind of joy. Is it there now? Because you're not doing your thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:57)

That really happens. We make decisions based on the opinions of people who are living completely different lives. They don't have the same path moving forward. They don't have the same future or the past experiences to use as a frame of reference. So do you think that we're basing our decisions on people who don't have the information they need to even accurately advise us?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (21:12)

Let's run.

100%. And I think when you think about generations and families, your grandma or your auntie or your parents of an adult might say, no, I don't think, it's not a good idea to do that. Now, it might not be. You might be gonna go and do something that is a bit crazy, but actually their reference, their model of the world is that they could not possibly see themselves. So they then put their worry for you.

on to you and actually it's for you to be able to go this is right for me this is what I need to do. When I used to work in the National Health Service here in the UK for 20 plus years so I had a permanent post and a pension and security and 15 so I was a therapist mainly I worked as a therapist in the NHS and I worked in different specialities so

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:10)

What did you do over there?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (22:19)

I worked in drugs and alcohol for five years. I worked in domestic violence for five years. I worked in safeguarding. There's something about five years. I don't know what that was all about. ⁓ But I worked predominantly with people. But what I was going to say about it was when I said I was going to leave the NHS, lots of people said to me, ⁓ you can't do that. You can't leave your security and your safety and set up your own business. But that's because they...

couldn't imagine doing that. And I had to go, I'm doing it. I'm doing it. It was the biggest thing I've ever done.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:54)

pitches.

actually feel like this conversation is fate. I'm so glad to be hearing that part of your story.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (23:00)

I will.

Brilliant! Yeah, people, there was lots of people who said don't do it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:13)

think that story, ⁓ I do want to know how long ago that happened, but I want to really point out that these days, a lot of people are wondering should they do something independent, especially in this economy where people have also a lot more technology and they want to try different things. Experiment, see what could be created in a new way instead of just following a large entity or following an institution. So.

What made you exit and well, a larger organization, what made you step away from the norm, the security, the perceived security and also, but also how long ago was that?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (23:58)

So it was 15 years ago. So a long time ago now. definitely, I was laughing with somebody yesterday to say I'm probably unemployable now. I've been doing this. I've been doing my own thing for far too long now. But you know, I know there's, as you said, there's lots of people out there who fear and have a lot of doubt about could I do it? And I can honestly say, if I...

If I look back to what I did do, you can. I think that's my message is you can. Yes, there's things you need to work out and put in place. But I think the biggest thing for me was just having the belief in myself that I was gonna make it happen. Because the big difference that I noticed about being self-employed compared to being employed is you are in charge. So you decide. You...

Yes, you probably work a lot more hours, but you're doing it because it's your thing, your passion. You are able to pivot. You're able to change things. If something doesn't work, as long as you be too hard on yourself, you can think, right, OK, I can try this. You're open to all the opportunities and possibilities. So I know that there are probably people who might listen to this and think, financially, I just can't do it.

I know that's a massive big step and there was definitely there was times in my past where I was a bit like, oh, what, you know, what am going to do? But if you home in on that before you leave and do the leap, you won't do it. But if you stay with the, following my passion and I'm going to do it, it's amazing how you find ways to do that. And the other thing that I did do just as a for full

for the full story is I did reduce my hours first. So that was my first thing I reduced. did instead of doing five days, I did four days for the NHS so that I had three days, because obviously I was working the weekend then to develop what I had. And then that almost was the gate then, because I was like, okay, I really want to do this now. And I think the other thing for me personally was while in NHS here,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:19)

you

Alison Blackler, 2minds (26:23)

is incredible and we are very lucky to have it. It's changed a lot and in my 24 years I it wasn't the same anymore it was different and I was struggling a little bit with my values because my ⁓ the opportunity to make the difference was changing because of some of the limitations. So some of the limitations within the NHS for example ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:45)

How?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (26:50)

you know, if you came for therapy, you would be allowed six sessions. And that was that. And that really isn't enough for some people. So I felt like I was part of something that wasn't quite working. And actually now in those 15 years, it's like changed a million times over again. So I'm glad I'm not in there anymore. But, you know, obviously, my big advocate still for it. So I think, you know, people often talk about their values being

affected by the behaviours maybe in a business or in the organisation that you work for. And I think again, piece of work is to get clear on what your values are, because then you can pay attention to when you feel good, it's because you're fulfilling them and when you're not feeling good, it's because they're probably being neglected or even violated, you know, by a business or by the people around you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:44)

I really am curious. Firstly, I want to ask about the work that you do now, but first you mentioned having worked in, the addiction area and.

with people who struggled with addiction. And I'm really curious about the mindset of people who are overcoming any sort of addiction because there are the obvious ones, the substances, but we hear these days about people being addicted to devices or being a workaholic or all sorts of things. What's your perspective on that?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (28:19)

I there are, I mean, let's just say, if it's a, if my experience was in drugs and alcohol, so I was using predominantly working with heroin users. So there is the physical side of some addictions. But I think the thing with addictions usually, and this is a very generalization comment, there's usually something that isn't working for them internally. So there's something that is.

they're unhappy about, they've got deep trauma, they've got something that is unresolved. And then having a behaviour that they can do is a distraction, is a helpful, it becomes almost a protective piece that you then do, I'm doing this and that means I don't have to then deal with this. So sometimes we end up getting hooked on things.

because they are sort of serving us. They're serving the mind. They're giving us comfort. They're giving us fun. They're giving us safety. They're helping, but it usually means, and I can say this is a very broad description, but it usually means that there's something that isn't, you know, people go shopping, get addicted to shopping. There's something that it's filling the gap. It's filling some sort of a void which,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:43)

filling a void.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (29:47)

hasn't been processed or hasn't been dealt with. So it's either an avoidance, a distraction or a kind of filling the void. That's usually why we get... Because we've all got things that we do regularly that are almost, I can't do it without. what I'm always interested in is what are the unhealthy? We need to have lots of habits. The brain does well. It likes repetition.

So it does well to have a habit in things. So we have a habit to drink water, we have a habit to do things, you clean your teeth every day. We have lots and lots of habits. It's sometimes just identifying ones that while they have a purpose and while they probably do give us a thing, it's looking for the ones that actually, if you're being really honest with yourself, they're not, because they end up causing another problem. So people get hooked on social media.

And then they're annoyed with themselves because they've spent two hours and then they've really crossed because they've like wasted in their mind two hours. So for me, it's like, well, if that's what you've done, just be okay with that. Be okay that you've spent that time, but then what are you going to do next?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:58)

Thank

So make peace with the decision that was made previously and then simply live differently moving forward instead of, guess, shame or something like that? Is that what happens?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (31:16)

Yeah, I mean whatever your addiction is it for me you we need to start with being okay with whatever it is be kinder to yourself because otherwise you do the thing and Then you're annoyed and then you're upset with yourself Then you feel the shame then you feel a guilt then you feel frustrated Then you feel overwhelmed because you've wasted all this time or you spent all this money or you've done all this whatever For me, it's whatever it is stop

Think about what you're doing, be kinder. We all need to be kinder. I said something yesterday about when we are unkind to ourselves. For a lot of people, if you spoke to your friends the way that you speak to yourself, you would have no friends.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:04)

one line is something that we need to keep in mind. And I'm ready to pivot a little bit because you also mentioned how you worked with domestic violence. And I just want to visit that very, very briefly because I'm going to assume that a lot of people end up in a situation. Maybe they gradually, gradually developed a situation over time. And then do they end up feeling

dark? Do they wonder how could life be different? What did you see in terms of people being in a life that they couldn't keep tolerating and how did they dig themselves out of the hole?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (32:49)

So for a lot of people, again, it's a little bit like the addiction. We end up in situations, so that might be relationships, that can be friendships, that can be all sorts of things, that are, again, filling something. So if we think about a relationship and we think about, we get involved with somebody and they make us feel great.

and it's all going fantastic and you feel loved and it feels fantastic because you may be not doing... and the first thing to say here is often when it starts going wrong it's because you're not doing it for yourself so you're not doing self-love so you're hoping that somebody else is going to fill that gap and of course the minute you put the pressure or the emphasis on somebody else making you feel... when I hear people say you know he makes me feel happy that's...

Yes, of course, people do things and that makes us feel good. But if you're relying on that, usually relationships start going wrong when somebody is trying to get something from the other person. There's a big pressure or in most ⁓ abusive relationships, it's usually all around self confidence. know, people are usually insecure. The persecutors are usually insecure people in some level.

They might not think they are. They might think that they are the, you know, I'm all right. But actually inside, wouldn't be behaving in a controlling way or ⁓ in a nasty way, because they often end up putting people down because that makes them feel good. And then that becomes the abuse and then it sort of spirals. Getting out of those relationships can be very difficult for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes it's financial, sometimes it's fear.

But quite often it is that they've got so used to being treated in this way that they don't know how to treat themselves better. So they don't know that you're finding, again, and I'm talking very generally here, but finding a way to put yourself first and say, this is not okay with me, can be against everything that's been happening for all those times that they've been with this person.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:09)

actually there's a question. If, if some people have been so used to seeing, well, being treated the wrong way for a long time, maybe they were bullied a lot in a space or whatever it might be, and it sort of became the norm for whatever reason, how do they know what to look for? How do they navigate?

finding something that's good and accepting, trusting something that's good.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (35:44)

I think that's a brilliant question because quite often people who have had a challenging time in a relationship and it can stem from a family relationship. They might have watched their own parents behave like this. They might not know what good relationship looks like. They might not know what does real love look like. So quite often they sabotage things. So they might get out of that first relationship.

then they're completely sabotaged. The next one, which might have been quite a good relationship because they don't know how to behave and they don't know what it looks like. So I think that's a brilliant thing for people to pay attention to is finding what love means to you or what a healthy relationship means to you. And that would be a journey that people would need to go on. ⁓ And it is something that I share. I've actually got a book.

about relationships for that reason to help people navigate the highs and lows of relationships because they're tough. know, relationships are not easy, but the biggest relationship that you need to work on is the relationship you have with yourself. And then when you do that, you'll have a more successful relationship with someone else. And that's a friendship, but we all know that the closer the person is, the more challenging it is. And that's just...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:04)

challenging.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (37:05)

Yeah, think that, you know, so we have the way we are with friends. But if you've got an intimate relationship, so the minute you are more close with somebody, it becomes more complex, partly because you barriers are let down. So we tend to be more ourselves than nearer the person is and other people. Friends are a bit nearer, but then colleagues would be a bit further away. And, know, you are less likely to be your true self.

But when we are in close, sort of romantic relationships, we're much more likely to behave, ⁓ often, most people can be honest with themselves and say how you behave in a relationship, you wouldn't let your colleagues see you be like that, stropping around or doing, you we all do it. And I always think, you know, if you were brought up in a family, you will have been more true.

to who you were in the family with your siblings or your parents, you'll have been more just there yourself. And I always think that when we grow up and we become in a relationship, we almost take that from being with family to being with one person. And we are more likely to show our vulnerable side, to let things go. And that's healthy. That's the healthy side of being in an intimate relationship.

is we can be ourselves and let that guard down. But when it gets unhealthy is where the behaviours are not kind or not serving us. And unfortunately, there are a lot of people who do feel quite trapped. And you did say, didn't you, how do they get out of it? I mean, that is a journey. It's one that I would always, especially if it's quite abusive, I would always say needs to be thought through. You know, some people...

do leave a relationship like literally they've had enough and they go, they walk. In my professional experience, I saw a lot of that, particularly women, when they could see that enough now for their child. A lot of people's relationships will end because they cannot put their kid through that anymore. And that's right, you should do that. But it's never easy and there's a risk.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:57)

it.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (39:25)

always of them going back because they're caught up in the coercive behaviour that goes on.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:34)

It's so complicated. And so are you suggesting that the way we relate in our close relationships will be influenced by how we related to people growing up in our families?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (39:48)

Yeah, quite often we can be, you know, if you think of whoever brought you up, that would be what you would think a model of a relationship was, your mum and your dad or whoever brought you up, whatever they did, without other information, that's all you've got. So then you either model that and you just become that, you just become a mini version of what they were, or like in my experience, I didn't want to be like that.

So I made a conscious decision to learn how to be different to that. But again, that's not something you can just decide to do because the way that we are wired is unconsciously that coding from what you experienced, what you saw, how your caregivers, whoever brought you up, how they show love.

or not, will become how you behave in a relationship. And then there's all sorts of other layers of how we'll all show up differently. And then, of course, you meet somebody else and they might be more, say you've been brought up where a lot of love wasn't demonstratively shown, and then you might meet somebody who's really touchy feely and wants to be, and you can, you'll either go, ooh, or you'll learn.

to kind of embrace that and maybe make some changes there. So again, for me, it's about making sure that people don't feel they have to change, but there's always an opportunity to make a change when we meet new people. And that doesn't have to be relationship, that could just be a friend. You meet a friend and you become, we're constantly, we're emerging all the time, aren't we, as humans, we're constantly changing by, you know, meet somebody new and you can look back on yourself and think, wow, look at me, I'm so.

you know, more confident or whatever.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:42)

Absolutely. It sounds like we can apply those lessons to interacting with communities as well of various types.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (41:50)

Definitely, I mean, I think that's where there's, talked earlier about the noise out there and all the stuff. It's not all great at all, is it? But you know, what impact can we make within our own bubble, I call it, you your own family, your own relationship, your own community, your own team, and what positively things can we all do, you know, that collective consciousness? you know, I think some for some.

they can get, if you tap into the bigger stuff, it can feel really scary and quite overwhelming. And actually I think we need to try and come back to something that's within your bubble.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:31)

to pivot slightly to a daring question. If someone is trying to develop a personal brand and do their own independent business, kind of like what you're doing, but in whatever specialty they have, then what steps should they take to figure out their authenticity and figure out their style after perhaps being in very conforming spaces?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (43:00)

I think it's a brilliant question, isn't it? And I'm sure it's a question that you must ask all the time about being, you know, that authenticity. mean, it's a word that's used a lot these days. And I do think it's got a bit diluted. I think you really need to work out who you are. You know, for me, it's about really tapping into what do you love? You know, if you were asked to go and look for images on animals.

shoes, flowers and cakes for example and you had to go and find pictures on the internet of ones that you loved we would all bring slightly different pictures wouldn't we? Some would bring pictures with vibrant colours and and really bright things and other people would bring pictures of different you know and then asking ourselves what is it about that that makes the difference but I think one of the things that I think is really interesting about us all is

What we think about ourselves and what people who know us think about ourselves often isn't aligned. It's not the same. And I always think it can be quite an interesting piece of work to do to talk about how other people see us. What do they see in you? know, people. And then how do we lean into that? How do we become more of what others think of us? Because so often,

somebody can say something about themselves and everybody who knows them is like, really? I didn't know you felt like that about yourself because on the outside we can often look something. So I'm always keen to stay in our lane, be ourselves, but be curious about what, your stretches are and your stretches can often be identified by somebody else saying, this is what I see in you. And if they, and that could be part of your branding, couldn't it? Part of your, of your visibility.

is to be a bit more like that. It's a big piece of work, isn't it, if people are trying to work out what it is that they need to do. I think we all need, because I always think with marketing and things like this, if you don't show up as yourself on your marketing, so you might have an amazing brochure and it's all singing and dancing, but then you then show up and you're different to that, people are like,

How they going to buy off you if they don't like see you in your marketing? Cause you're going to show up. know, if I, people watch this today and then saw something very different on my stuff, they'd like, ⁓ she's not the same. I like to be the same. am who I am. very open. You you've asked me all sorts of things. That's how I am on everything that I do. people, that's, I think that's the biggest thing, isn't it? Is to, to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:43)

doesn't feel consistent.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (45:57)

to work out what your energy, what your vibe is, what your offer is. And also the other thing that I hear a lot of people talk about is where do we make up some of the rules about what needs to go on? So for example, if we were to talk about social media, LinkedIn, you oh, needs, you need to be formal on there. You need to be professional. Where does it say that?

I literally say, if your business is very professional and what you offer is very professional, then go for it and show up in that way. But if it isn't, why are we trying to fit into these boxes that really aren't, nobody doesn't say on LinkedIn, only ever come on here if you're a professional, if you're being professional even, does it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:49)

I'm about

your definition of professional there. I'm guessing you're talking about the very formal conforming robotic style.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (46:58)

Yeah, like corporate. You know, I remember when I set up my business 15 years ago, you know, I was told you need a video that's very kind of, you know, very professional and coming across and da, da, da, da. Really, really, you know, if that's not me, there are people who need to be like that. You know, if you wanted to go to a lawyer or something like that, maybe you would want them to be very like that because that will help you trust them.

because they are being what you think. Because that's the other thing about humans, isn't it? We make up what we think somebody should be like. We make up that a lawyer should be in this way. We make up that an accountant should be this way. We make up that a farmer should be this way. And then really, you then meet people and do they fit or not? I this is something that I'm really interested in is we make these stereotypes or these judgments that...

know a certain person, somebody should be a certain way but they're also different. How does that you know there are traits for sure you know you'd imagine an accountant would be very good at attention to detail and very interested in that sort of thing but it doesn't mean that they have to be there with a suit and a tie and this and that and that's where I really want to you know that's why I love having these kind of conversations because I think we need to break down some of this stuff.

that is getting in our way. Who says, where's it written that we need to do any of these things? If it's you and your brand and your business or whatever it is you want to offer, what is it that you need to do? Why do we need to feel like we've got to do what everyone else is doing?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:47)

You probably can stand out more as well if you are being you because surely if you're copying everybody else, then why would someone pick something that's the same?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (48:57)

I love that

exactly. Why would someone pick, you you need to show up as you and then your customers will find you or your people will find you. You know, they often say, don't they, when you are clear on what you are offering, then you shine the light on the people that need you, that need to hear that. Even a podcast like this, you know, there's thousands of podcasts out there. You know, what is it that makes people want to lean into your stuff?

And that again is part of your marketing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:29)

Actually, that's really interesting because this podcast turned into a focus on how people who are doing interesting work can look after themselves. And I loved asking these questions with you because there are so many different ways that we need to look after ourselves. And with some other guests, it has meant what are we going to eat or how are we going to be mindful?

But with you, it was going to very much the, the basic essentials of even believing that we can do something different, believing we can change, believing we can have happy relationships.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (50:17)

It starts with that, it really does. And you know, sometimes I hear myself saying or reminding people that, you know, sometimes the best things that we can do are so simple. They are so, so simple. You know, I think that's where we get a bit overwhelmed with all these complex things that we think we need to do. And actually, really, if we got the real simple basics right, you if we were able to set an intention for the day and be able to be happy with what we've achieved by the of the day.

we'd be so much happier. And then when we're happier, so much more happens.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:53)

The little simple things that's what it is. I've seen some, documents in the allied health space. And sometimes it's from a very good intention and it's what's expected that basically you have pages upon pages of jargon that doesn't actually tell us, okay, but what are we actually going to do?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (51:14)

Exactly, exactly. And I think that's when people then switch off and they become overwhelmed because it's not clear what is needed or what people are asking. Or we've loaded a load of other stuff on the top that isn't even there. You sometimes people say things to me and I'll often, as a coach, I'll ask them, you

Who said who's who told you that or where did you get that piece of information from or? You know where did where why is it that you've thought that and quite often people pause and be like Absolutely, no idea. Nobody's told me to do that. Nobody has suggested that whatsoever, and it's just a complete internal Because this chitchat in here's can be very noisy It can be giving us all sorts of who do you think you are what you can't do that what you're doing next you know nobody will

be interested in buying from you or nobody will want to watch my podcast or whatever and that's all a load of rubbish. If we're clear on what we're doing the right people will find us and that's the joy of the array of stuff that's out there because there's some podcasts for example if we stick to that that won't be for me and you but that's okay because they'll be for someone and that's okay too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:38)

There would be so many types of podcasts and I just listened to a few favorites, but I'm sure there are some that go for three hours and I'm not going to have a three hour conversation as much as some of these really could have, but I feel like I need to draw the line somewhere. And you have the podcasts that are a lot more structured with it. A set of questions, but I love going with the flow. That really works.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (53:03)

Yeah, that's me.

Well, I've got a podcast. I'm not recording at the moment, but I've got a podcast and I always had a guest and we had a topic, but we would just go wherever we needed to go because that's useful. think it's in flow and you talk about being authentic then it's not forced. You know, I have not got a script here that I'm reading off at all. Everything that I've said is literally just come from,

from me and my experience. And part of that is my own experience because I wasn't confident when I was younger. And that's something else that I, you know, really open to say. I have done lots of things in my life that have, you know, haven't worked out or, you know, put myself in situations, relationships and bits and pieces that where I wasn't believing in myself. And I decided to learn how to do that. And then I've ended up offering that as a service and as a business. And, you know, I am, I'm...

living proof that you can do whatever you want. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if I hadn't been on that journey. But the bit that you have to remember is it's not a quick journey. If you are unraveling past stuff and being able and you don't, people often think, does that mean I've got to go into huge therapy? Not necessarily, not necessarily. It's just finding the little steps and making those changes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:27)

That's the big encouragement that I'm seeing from this conversation that when we're stepping away from a difficult situation, realizing that it's okay if it takes time, that has been really reassuring because maybe it's partly cultural that we always want the quick fix, but sometimes if we're really desperate to escape something, you just want it instantly. But

there's a lot of compassion we can have for ourselves in knowing that it simply will take time because it does.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (55:01)

Yeah, I think sometimes we can make a decision quite quickly that moves us along, but actually wanting the full kind of finished article, you know, it's the cake in the oven, isn't it? You've got to wait for the half an hour for it to cook. It's a bit like that. But I think one of the things that I see a lot of people who are a bit stuck is they don't make decisions.

they're disabled by the lack of decision making for all the reasons for fear, what's everyone else think, what's everyone else doing, all the things that we've talked about, and actually just making a decision. So if there's something that someone is listening to this podcast today and they've been, whether it's procrastination or whether it's fear, if there's something that you are making that first decision, make the decision to...

to do, even if it's, don't know what you're going to do, but make a decision that you're going to do something different. Even if you just decide that, even if you haven't quite got what you're going to do, make a decision that today you're going to decide to make that different thing in your life. And I think be conscious of that, you know, because so much of what happens with us all is totally out of our awareness. It's just all happening on our behalf. And for me, just being really

conscious and saying do you know what I listened to this podcast the other day and they were saying just Decide that something is going to be different. I don't quite know how Not sure how you know, I feel a bit overwhelmed, but I'm just gonna decide No enough now or something that in itself changes the page projection of it

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:48)

After the decision, I'm guessing your next step for anyone would be to take those small achievable steps, no matter what it is.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (57:00)

Yeah, so you can either just keep making a step up as you go along, or as we said earlier, maybe it's about, okay, what might be on the steps. Sometimes getting with somebody else, get with your friend, get with somebody, you can say, okay, if I wanted to achieve this, what would I need to do? You know, I think a marathon is a great metaphor. You know, if you wanted to, if I want to run a marathon, I won't be running one tomorrow. I would have to plan.

and I'd have to get fit, I'd have to do, you know, over time. If you saw it like that, saw it as, right, what would I do? So if I was gonna run the marathon, I need to go and start running, first of all. So I need to start running short and I need to do that for so many days. That's why those apps, there's apps out there, isn't there, that help you with things like that. You wanna create something like that for your dream, whatever that might be.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:54)

and it sounds like we now have a practical couple of steps of the decision and then knowing what we need to do, figuring out what we need to do and they are the two things anyone can do in whatever metaphorical marathon they might have.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (58:11)

Yeah, just believe if you're passionate enough about it. honestly believe and it's not just sitting there hoping it's going to happen. You've still got to take action. But if you're passionate about something, find a way, find the ways to do it. Because I think otherwise you will be leaving yourself without that joy. Or if there's part of it that's absolutely out of your reach at the moment, that's OK.

what is, what could be the steps to make that happen.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:47)

way. Alison, thank you so much. I can see that we have really created value here and I to thank you for your time. Thanks for coping with me talking after a dinner time in my time zone.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (59:02)

I know, know, bless you. It's midday here in the UK and I know you're probably getting ready to have your quiet time in the evening. So I appreciate this time together. It's been lovely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:15)

Yes, thank you so much.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (59:17)

So welcome.

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Motivate Collective

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