Transcript

Darryle Brown (00:00)

If I'm writing crime thrillers, it needs to be credible. It needs to be because I come from this world, I come from this background. If

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:08)

Okay, let's talk about that more for a moment. I want to illustrate to the audience, we've talked so much about your writing, but we need the audience to understand what was work like when you were a cop, what sorts of events or issues or cases- describe it.

What sorts of things did you come up against? What were you often dealing with?

Darryle Brown (00:40)

gosh. I worked in every aspect of law enforcement except actually SWAT, which is ironic for the character that I've created. Big reason why I know I've worked in patrol, particularly when I was in military police. I was responsible to you know, patrol and deal with sometimes unruly airmen maybe at a bar, getting in fights, a number of other things. Also, I would patrol the sky the the flight line to make sure that our aircraft and all of that were safe and military personnel who work on the base. And that was a great experience because not a lot of hostility or issues occur other than this normal unruly, you know, young airmen doing goofy things. But for the most part, being able to overcome my shyness, because you believe it or not, I used to be shy, especially in high school and growing up in school and things of that nature. It was the military that changed my life in that sense, where I was able to not only gain confidence within myself and my self-esteem, things of that nature. But I learned the importance of mentorship and being a positive influence to other airmen, to my fellow security policemen and things of that nature. And those transferable skills carried on into my career in the Denver Sheriff's Department. And I became a sergeant in a very short period of time. I or my first three years, that's not common. Usually between the fifth year or the seventh year, many deputies might promote, but I was promoted in my third year. And a big reason why is because of the skills I had already developed from my military experience. And I knew that when I got out of the military, that going into civilian law enforcement was just a natural fit for me and working in the Sheriff's Department is an eye-opener because they not only handle the law enforcement portion but also dealing with the detention facilities, the jails, the courts, and dealing with the jails or detention facilities are probably the hardest parts of working in law enforcement because

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:34)

Why?

Darryle Brown (03:35)

that

Community, they're all hostile. These are people who have committed murders. These people have robbed banks. These people have been involved in violent crime, drugs, you name it. And you are not armed when you're working in a jail facility, not at least with a firearm. And for good reason, because if you're ever disarmed, then it becomes a whole different situation. So you're armed with other weapons. But it also teaches you how to more effectively communicate because that quote-unquote community, when you're working in a jail facility, I tell you, it's not for everyone. Not everyone has the type of temperament that would enable them to successfully work in a jail facility when all of the inmates look at you as the enemy. Any one of them have the potential to kill you with improvised weapons they call shanks are kind of like knives that they can make out of practically anything to stab you with, and a number of other dangers that you deal with. So it does teach you to be keen on your observation skills, on how you communicate, how you use force, whether it's to take down someone, to take them into custody, make sure, especially if there are fights involved, things of that nature. Some have assaulted deputies, and we had to deal with them accordingly. And then there are some that fight each other. And this is a contained environment. But still, it doesn't mean that being in a contained environment that you don't deal with the dangers of that environment. And the same goes for the courts too. Courts can be subject to hostile situations, whether it's in a courtroom, whether it's in one of the temporary detention pursuits where someone's trying to escape, and we had to chase them down or something of that nature. And one of the favourite things that I did in this while I was with the sheriff's department, I worked with the Fugitive Warrants Unit. Now that's different from patrol and much more dangerous. And a big reason why is that the people that you're looking for, they don't want to go to jail.

So it's not like you're doing a call for service to someone's residence because they called 911. No, these are people we're actively looking for who are wanted by the courts or by other law enforcement or whatever, and we're out in the city hunting them down. And some we catch, some we don't, but it carries its own risk because you never know when you're knocking on that door that they might, you know, start shooting at you because they rather die than go to prison. And so fortunately, I haven't been in a situation when we were hunting down fugitives where we've ended up dealing with hostilities or things of that nature. Most of them know why we're there; they know what we're doing, and my communication skills, which I was a Toastmaster during that time, paid off handsomely because I was able to de-escalate situations talk down a lot of the situations that could have went south quickly. And I humanised the situations, that sure this person broke the law, whether they're an inmate, whether they're facing trial, or whether we're hunting them down because they're wanted. I always have been able to rely on these communication skills to deal with some of the most potentially hostile or volatile people out in society. And to keep the public safe, I have to do what I can to ensure that the best outcome occurs in all of my encounters. And I've been fortunate enough to have been able to do so. But it's not easy. It's, you know, I would say even law enforcement, not for everybody.

Not everyone can put on a badge and be able to deal with the potential trauma or trauma in general that I could have encountered in many situations I've been in. You know, hell, I've been threatened by big-time gangbangers, you know, inside and outside the jail facility. But you know what?

My skills paid off in a big way. By the way, my shirt says pay no attention to my browsing history. I'm a writer, not a serial killer. Anyway.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:27)

Right, right, absolutely. Of course you are. Your skills, let's explore that. Your communication skills helped you to feel safe or protect yourself in some way when dealing with, let's call them perhaps, the most dangerous people. Which skills, what techniques helped you to stay empowered?

Darryle Brown (08:52)

Well, one of the biggest things is that we are taught in our training to de-escalate situations. Don't come in there as a hothead, and they will call you everything but a child of God. you but you realize that it's not personal towards you. It's the badge you're wearing, what you represent to them. Because most of the time when they encounter someone wearing that badge, it's usually confrontational.

So if they've had a- not necessarily being empathetic toward them, but understanding what their mindset is because every encounter that they've had, because by their own bad choices, they've broken the law, which brought us into that confrontation in the first place. Some of them have been very bad, and some of those experiences they've encountered bad cops who overstep their authority and haven't exercised the types of techniques and styles that I've used to de-escalate situations. So I don't have to use force. Because you have to when you use force, it's tiring. You risk injury to yourself, the person you're trying to bring into, and your fellow officers or your fellow deputies. And so you have to think about what's the best course of action that can bring about the best outcome.

And that is coming from being able to communicate effectively. And for me, that's my biggest weapon, both this and this here. And if I use both of those simultaneously when I'm dealing with a potentially volatile or hostile situation, I have my best chance of having the best outcome out of it. And that's a big reason why I've been able to, you know, get out of the military as well as retire from the sheriff's department in one piece. It's because I use those skills. And even though I've been threatened by gangbangers on the inside at one of the jail facilities I worked at, when they saw me on the street, because, you know, yeah, we just see you on the street. A lot of times when they're inside, it's for show. But they always remember that I never mistreated them. I treated them like a human being. I used my communication skills effectively.

So when I'm on the streets, and they see me, they remember me. And I remember them. But you know what? They're never gonna make good on that threat because one of the things that they remember is that I've always treated them like a human being. And it's difficult to justify.

Wanting to harm someone, even a cop, that has treated you like a human being. And that's

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:50)

Mm-hmm.

Darryle Brown (11:50)

One of the things that I always think about is that I did I do my very best at the end of the day to ensure the best possible outcome using the skills I have, that doesn't put me in a position where my fellow deputies, that person I have in custody.

person I arrested, the person in public that I've encountered, that no one gets hurt. That yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:19)

Daryl, I feel inspired by what you are saying. Because although most of us people, us listeners, we won't be dealing with top-level criminals like you were saying. However, in my previous recording, I was talking to someone about forgiveness. And everybody at some point feels like someone else has hurt them, betrayed them, something has happened, even if someone hasn't committed a crime. And what I'm saying in what you are describing is you are connecting with the human behind the action, no matter what it has been, because that will encourage someone to cooperate with you, perhaps, or at least keep peace with you.

I'm inspired by that so much because I can relay that to one of my more how to put it? One of my more normal experiences that people can relate to. Let's just say I won't pull skeletons out of the closet. That's my phrase of today. However, I felt abandoned by someone, and I can tell you I had close friends saying that person is immature, that person is a prick, that person is this,

Darryle Brown (13:51)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:52)

All these dehumanising labels, right? That person is a loser or whatever. All of these labels,

Darryle Brown (13:57)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:58)

and people are saying, block them and tell everybody what they're up to. Do all of this.

Darryle Brown (14:05)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:05)

And there's something dehumanising.

Darryle Brown (14:10)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:10)

We are reminded that there is something dehumanising in labelling someone as nothing more than their worst action. You have seen the most horrific types of people according to their actions, and you've been able to see the human behind all of that. That is a skill. That's a skill that all listeners

Darryle Brown (14:41)

Damage, alright.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:43)

can learn from.

Darryle Brown (14:46)

Mm-hmm. yeah, and I think that that's a big part of how I've developed these characters and really humanizes them in a sense in which that when you read the kill code, you'll s you'll s you really see that these characters here are tangible, they're real characters, they care about the people that they protect, they care about each other, they care about even those they have in custody, in a manner in which that if we want the best possible outcome. If that means a bad guy surrenders rather than us having to use deadly force, that's usually the most ideal outcome. That no one gets hurt at the end of the day and everyone's safe. Doesn't always happen, but that's what we always hope for at the end of the day. When it comes to, yeah, my encounters with those who are hostile. Hopefully I can bring the temperature down and be able to deal with them accordingly or so, and with everyone being safe. Doesn't always happen,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:03)

How do you do that?

Darryle Brown (16:04)

but you you do what you can. Well, you know, I I

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:07)

So

Darryle Brown (16:09)

You gotta come in with the right mindset in you when you're coming in and encountering a situation, and you don't have all the facts. You don't know much about this person or who you're dealing with. You have to rely on your training, and that's what they train all officers to do: to look to de-escalate. Don't put yourself in a position by your own bad judgment or your own judgment.

That puts you where it escalates into you having to use force or deadly force or whatever the case may be. Do everything you can to put the the the posit you position yourself to ensure the best possible outcome. What I've always expected from my deputies when I was a supervisor is the same thing: if what you've done, you can account for that was done in accordance with the training.

And the rules and what we expect of you. I will back you up. I will get on the witness stand. I will do a character reference for you and back you up. But the moment you step over that line, and you act outside of those things, this is why I've told every deputy: I hold them accountable and say, look, you're on your own. I'm not going to cover for you.

When you know and have been trained better, when you know better, that situation should not have escalated had you used what you've been trained to do to de-escalate situations. And so if I needed to do disciplinary action on a deputy that maybe lost control or whatever, they might have had a bad day or whatever, it's going to be a teachable moment.

Because I want them to be able to learn from that and do better the next time around. Some have, some have learned their lesson when they made a mistake, especially a rookie mistake. But then after they sit down with me and I talk to them, and I give good feedback. I'm not harsh when it came to my subordinates. When I talk to them, I talk to them in a manner in which it is respectful. I'm tactful in my approach.

And I want them to learn. And if it's also a mentoring role that I engage in to get them on track to do the right thing, then at the end of the day, I feel that I've done my job both as a leader and a mentor. So it's not just my own skills that I rely on for myself, but also for those who are who I happen to lead, influence things of that nature. Try to be a role model who practices what they preach. And most of the time it does work. But not for everybody. There's some knuckleheads out there that regardless, they and then in the

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:13)

Okay, that's something we can learn as well, that we can try to do the right thing and there will still be some colourful cali I can pardon me. I'll let it we can do all the right things, and we will still encounter colourful characters who will do what they are going to do.

Darryle Brown (19:35)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and yeah, and and we have to to understand that not everything is in our control. Sometimes the outcomes of things with people, particularly you're dealing with other human beings, they some you're just gonna have to let them make their own decisions, good or bad. Some people unfortunately have to learn things the hard way. They don't have to.

But sometimes people choose to. But if that's what it takes for them to learn the lesson, then you know, I may just have to let them learn the hard way. But I would rather those who I influence learn from someone else's mistakes than for them to make those mistakes or repeat them. But it does happen. And I've done my own fair

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:25)

Absolutely. As we wind up.

Darryle Brown (20:28)

Share of mistakes. I tried to learn from them also, you know. So

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:32)

For sure.

So you went to a writer's group.

Darryle Brown (20:37)

Yes, I joined a writer's group because I was looking at what I plan to do after retirement. This will be my second retirement. I work for the federal government. And I wanted to do something that I enjoy because I knew that I had writing potential writing talents, and I've written articles, numerous types of public relations.

types of work, and I've written short stories. But if you told me 20 years ago that I would be writing novels, I would have thought you were nuts. Because

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:18)

Really?

Darryle Brown (21:19)

it was, it was; I wasn't quite sure I would be capable of accomplishing something like this, but that changed when I joined this writer's group a while back. And so

They particularly specialised in writing romance novels, and because they make a lot of money doing that. And for me, because it's not my genre or my interest, it was not a direction I wanted to go. And I told them that, look, I love suspense thrillers, crime thrillers; that's my genre.

I believe that that's the direction I should go. If I'm going to do this, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to put my all into something that I know that if I wrote something like this, or a thriller novel, I wanted to be the kind of book that if I did not write it, I would read it in a heartbeat. And so these past two years, I have been working on not just one novel but a series of novels where it began where I wanted to do a type of spy thriller, master of disguise type of character who because it was tragedy that brought about how he became who he is; I wanted to write a story in that fashion.

But also, I have a real life best friend that I wanted to do a story, maybe he'd either be a support character or a character in an in a series of his own where I would, you know, have both of them interact and have a kind of a team-up together in this particular book.

And so when I planned to do it initially, I was only going, I was going to do a series of maybe short novels. But then I realised something as I joined another writer's group: if I do this right, I have the potential to be able to make it a major, full-length novel. And I challenged myself, and I said, Well, can I do this? Because what I had written so far was like 35,000 words for this one particular character. The name of the book I initially had written was called The Silent Asset, and that was going to be my spide throw didn't even know I had the capability, even write something like that. It was nuts. But I had the concept, I had the outline, I had the plot, I knew what the character was going to be, I knew his background and all that, because it was loosely based off of me. In my background,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:30)

How?

Darryle Brown (24:31)

Because I was a military cop in the Air Force, and also, as you know, I'm a retired cop. But this particular character would be an elite SWAT commander in the FBI and so

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:45)

Okay, let's unpack all of this if that's okay. Because it's inspired

Darryle Brown (24:48)

Yeah, absolutely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:50)

by your career

Darryle Brown (24:52)

I, you know, do what every other cop does. You want to make a difference, you want to help people, you want to protect people and things of that nature. And most people understand if you're a good cop and you're one who wants to help your community and serve your community, there are certain expectations. And during the course of my career, both as a military cop, you know, in the Air Force.

I wanted to always do the right thing, of course, with integrity and ensure that military personnel were protected and safe. And that carried over when I joined the Denver Sheriff's Department here in Denver, Colorado. And so I've always been, or I felt I've been, a person of integrity, and I always wanted to serve in a manner in which those who know me would be proud of me. But before I went into that profession, I actually wasn't quite interested in becoming a I had an interest in comic books for years, and I love superheroes, particularly super teens. So I'm thinking subconsciously, maybe that kind of moved me in that direction, where just like the heroes in the books, I wanted to be that hero in my community. So that's where a lot of that stems from is that being a cop, I can make a difference; I can help people.

I can do what I can to make a positive difference as well. Mind you, yes, we have our share of bad cops, corrupt cops, things of that nature. And I worked in internal affairs to get those types of people off the force or hold them accountable. And I wanted to make sure that those who served with me are serving at the highest level of integrity and accountability so that we can maintain the public's trust. So yeah, yeah, that's the reason why I lean toward that, and I look at my career proudly. And so when I started reading novels on a regular basis, I of course lean more toward crime thrillers, things of that nature because some crime thrillers, because I was also an investigator or a detective, I like to, as a reader, I want to see if I can solve the crime or find out who the suspect is, or I suspect that guy's the killer, or this person is the robber, or the bad guy. And sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm not, because if you're a writer worth your chops, you really want to ensure that it's not predictable for the reader. And I was so inspired by that, by all of the different characters or authors that I'm a fan of. I want if when I started on this journey, I wanted to ensure that if I'm going to write this, I don't want to be the next Lee Child or the next James Patterson or any of those.

I want to be the best version of myself as a writer. And even my debut novel, I wanted to ensure that it comes across not as a debut novel, but mature enough after all the time and work I've put into it that this doesn't feel like a debut novel, but a guy who has been who put the work in, put the time in, put the devotion in.

For it to come across as, wow, this guy knows what he's doing. Because for me, I want to look at that book and say, hey, I would have read that book if I didn't write it. And that's how I come into it. I come in it from both an author's perspective and a reader's perspective. So

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:13)

I can totally relate to that feeling of wanting to make something that you would want to consume. That's a great way to approach creating. I think I believe that more people should take that approach in how they create. Think, would I want this thing that I'm making? Is that one of your top parts of your ethics even?

It's a part of your value system.

Darryle Brown (29:49)

absolutely. And I think that as I have been working on if what started as that novel actually grew into three novels. And so I had thought about what would that what would a book look like featuring my main character's best friend. So Arc Savage.

Or his name is his full name is Archer. Arc Savage is the character for the silent asset for the spy thriller. And he uses what is called a second skin technology, where he can it's a and it's a nanotechnological technology that he can transf he can take on the features of any identity, whether they are black, Caucasian, Asian, Hispanic, you name it.

And this character is African American. And so this particular character, I wanted to ensure that if I'm going to portray his best friend, what would that series look like if he did a solo series? So I worked on a short story at first. And being the rookie that I am, I didn't like it after I was done to finish product was just not working for me. So I said, well, I'll keep it as a short story, but then I want to work on one that has a little more action, a little more intensity. And so I started working on a book that I titled The Kill Code. And so this particular book would begin with a judge being shot, and Darren Riker is the character, the best friend of Ark Savage. And he would be investigating that alongside his partner, Maya Chen, who's also an FBI agent. So these so Darren Riker, Maya Chen are two FBI agents. And what happens in this particular story is that the kill code is a type of domestic terror operation in which Ark Savage had dismantled that particular domestic terrorist group, and now they're wanting revenge. And so that's how they end up teaming up in this particular book. So

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:25)

Okay.

Is that sort of thing the sort of event that came up in your work, or is this going beyond that? The domestic terrorism, was that the sort of issue that you explored when you were a cop?

Darryle Brown (32:45)

No, no, I had not experienced those particular types of scenarios. But I'm a huge fan of a number of types of books of that nature. And I used to watch the show called 24 on Fox years ago, and Jack Bauer, who played by played by Keith or Sutherland, it was such a well written series, and I was a huge fan after multiple drafts, after multiple work or so in these past two years, and you know, I have had various coaches, beta readers, and so forth, and kept tweaking, kept polishing.

Got some rejection letters from some agents, which was fine, because when I know it's finally ready, I need to keep polishing till I get there. And I kept moving forward. I didn't let the rejections deter me from maintaining

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:52)

Right, right.

Darryle Brown (33:53)

my focus and my desire to do, and one of the things that kept me in the right perspective is that the group that one of the groups that I'm in now, I they had mentioned that Chicken Soup for the Soul, which is like an international bestseller, was rejected multiple times before it ever got into print. And the same goes for Stephen King's book, Carrie. It got- I think they told me that he got rejected 45 times before. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:28)

Even Harry Potter was rejected.

Darryle Brown (34:32)

And so, so that's it, so that helps keep things in perspective because we know that once they get that yes, some magic happens, and we are everybody knows who Harry Potter is. Everybody have or at least knows of, if they haven't seen the movie, Carrie and Chicken Soup for the Soul. You know what I'm saying? So rejection is a part of the process when it comes

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:00)

It is.

Darryle Brown (35:00)

to writing.

And I think that as long as we keep our egos to the side and realise that when it comes to writing, especially if you take the traditional route rather than self-publishing and things of that nature, that you definitely have to keep things in perspective and don't let that be something that will cause you to give up. So

This has helped me tremendously because each rejection tells me I still have more work to do. And so

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:33)

Hold.

Darryle Brown (35:33)

This was just an amazing part of my journey because instead of those rejections or the declinations, things of that nature are a setback, they're actually fueled to say, hey, go back in there, read it again, edit again.

Take some stuff out, put some stuff in, you know what I'm saying? And so make sure that

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:01)

Sure, okay.

Darryle Brown (36:02)

everything lines up and that the story is easy to understand. Because when I first started, I was really wordy, and I had it up to like a 96,000-word count. And

Melanie Suzanne WIlson (36:18)

Can imagine

you being wordy. So I look, I want to look at more than the writing process, okay,

Darryle Brown (36:25)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:26)

For this episode, for the listeners to hear. Because what the listener is going to get from this is not necessarily how to write. It's going to be it's going to be a lesson.

On how they can be inspired by what you are doing. And what I am seeing from your journey is that you are taking an enthusiastic leap from the cop life to being a writer. And you called it retirement. You're creating something during retirement. That is something that everybody will face one day.

But we want to also hear about the author behind the book. Now this is quite a universal journey that you are taking. I'm curious, did you have a gap?

What made you decide to fully retire, or did you have a gap where you were trying to decide what to do next? Or did you know instantly the second the day you retired, you're going to start writing that book immediately?

Darryle Brown (37:47)

Now I'm not fully retired, retired. I work for the federal

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:50)

Okay.

Darryle Brown (37:50)

government now, so I made a transition between careers here.

I already had an exit strategy when at the when the time came for me to decide to retire from law enforcement. And that was finish my master's degree; I got an MBA, and that's a master's of business in administration for our for the sake of our audience.

And I wanted to make sure I had all my ducks in the road that I was ready to go when the time came for me to make that transition.

For me, I wanted to also use the knowledge that I have and put it into something creative, something fun, something interesting, something that would challenge me. Because like I said before, if you asked me twenty years ago, whether I, you know, if you told me I'd be writing novels, I would have thought you were nice because I said, well, I love to read, but I don't know the first thing about the writing process. But when you gather yourself with a tribe or a group of people who have those same challenges, those same concerns, the same fears when it comes to going into something like this. And the same thoughts that what if you fail? Or what if you're met with a setback? Or so and but then also on the same token, they're there to encourage you to say, Hey, you can do this. You know, believe in yourself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:19)

Yeah.

Darryle Brown (39:19)

We believe in you. You've got this. We'll walk you through the process. You know, and it's this is a type of journey you can't do alone and be successful. You need those types of people who are like-minded around you to give you the best shot at success. There's no guarantees, yeah, that my books will sell, but

I still want to position myself to have the best chance for that to occur. So I, you know, and so that's what I've learned being a monster group of those who are fellow writers, young, young, older, or you know, from various walks of life. We're all coming together. I went to my first writer's conference in March, and my gosh, that was an amazing experience for me because

Gosh, I mean, I'm in the midst of people from various people who are fully published, you know, well-known authors to people who are just like me, first started. Some of them have the concept in their minds, but they have not sat down and actually put their stories together. But if they did, it would be amazing. Because I know, as I listened to them, I was just like, wow, that would be amazing. I would get that book. So you gotta get your butt in a chair.

And start like I did.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:42)

question

You have so much energy. Do you do much speaking alongside your writing

Darryle Brown (40:50)

I'm glad you asked that question. I happen to be a Toastmaster. I have been a member of Toastmasters for about twenty-two, twenty-three years. when in college, I had taken a speech communications class and f completely forgot about it. It was like years before I even joined the Denver Sheriff's Department. And so, fast forward about three, four years in, I became the first ever public information officer in the history of Denver Sheriff's Department. That means I was that guy in uniform you would see on the news speaking on behalf of my agency. And I had never done anything like that before, but I had a desire because I wanted to make a difference and make my department look good. And so when I first saw myself on TV.

I was not that good. I was so green. I had stutters and uhs and ers and all before I knew what uhs and ers were. And so what happened is that

I was already seeing a difference at six months in. So when I was on TV, I saw I came across better polished. I came across in a manner in which I was confident.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:09)

Did you know I was a Toastmaster as well?

Darryle Brown (42:16)

Yes, that's awesome. Yes. How long were you in?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:20)

goodness. Look, I joined when I was twenty-one, but my grandparents started in the early seventies. So I was getting

Darryle Brown (42:28)

wow.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:28)

Babysat in some clubs when I was about fifteen, sixteen.

Darryle Brown (42:33)

That's fantastic. Yeah. So that's like almost like a family tradition. Yes, yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:38)

Pretty much, actually.

It was the bulk of my adulthood. I'm thirty-seven now, so we can do the math there. And

Darryle Brown (42:46)

Ha ha.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:48)

But yes, it was basically two decades ago I would have gone to clubs for the first time.

Darryle Brown (42:55)

That's outstanding. And those skills definitely carry over and benefit you greatly doing work like this. And I would tell every person who works in radio, podcasts, or any form of media, you need to be in an environment where you can polish your skills.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:17)

Let me know if you do this. I notice other things beyond the filler words. I

Darryle Brown (43:22)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:22)

need to remember in the stories I tell in the podcast, for example. I'll say, I passionately believe this because this is my reason for it. And here's an example where this thing has been embodied, implemented. It happened.

And this is why I prefer this. And what does that sound like to you? But then even I talk with my hands, and

Darryle Brown (43:53)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:54)

I, to this day, to be fair, the ands and so's, those joining words are my weakness that I need to ease up on. But I learned from so early on, for example, the audience will read your space and read your presence.

From the left to right, like a book. And so there we go. And so we won't pick ourselves up on that too much. I just see those things so ingrained. I could see in what you were doing some of that energy as well. It's so clear when you see someone who talks a lot, whether it's

I do think it can be more than one particular type of community group, whether it's a podcaster who talks a lot for that or a teacher; the previous person I recorded with worked in a college for a long time. You get some people- I don't know if you've seen this, but people who just are talkers. They talk and talk.

Darryle Brown (45:06)

Absolutely. And it's just the right environment for me. It has opened Toastmasters has opened a lot of doors for me. And so this transition into writing, coupled with that, and also on the fun side, I also sing karaoke. So it's kind of a trifecta of things. It's just all of those elements just really put me in the types of environments where I feel that I thrive the most. And so I am definitely thankful for my Toastmasters experience because I believe also that has played a key role in enabling me to take this journey toward writing. And that has that is helped me tremendously because it may be a time I might have to do a presentation about the Kill Code when it comes to that is going to be my debut novel. And I'm working right now on my finishing touches on my latest draft for it. But I believe now I'm at a place where it's actually ready. After this two-year journey, it's finally here. The other two books are also.

I've gotten several drafts done. I have a sequel that is called The Fate Protocol. And that's what happens after; it's the direct sequel to The Kill Code, but it only features Riker and Chen. And in The Silent Asset, it's just Ark Savage. And that's by design. So in the context of these three novels, those who read The Kill Code will understand why, because the recurring characters and everything that goes on in those they're linked together, but they can be read s as separate books and still, you know, if you read one of these, you're gonna want to read the other ones. So that's that's yes. So that's my

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:13)

Okay. Great. That's great.

Darryle Brown (47:16)

hope is is that yeah, that that kill code becomes a hit, then the other ones will soon follow.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:23)

I know for certain that it will get attention at least because you are putting so much energy into talking about it. Your strength is that you are a writer and a speaker. That is going to be an advantage. I can clearly see that you don't have a problem with overcoming fears or getting out of your comfort zone because there would have been all sorts of courageous situations to go into as a cop and now karaoke. I can tell you now I would be the most scared of karaoke because I know I'm not the best singer in the world. That to me would be bravery, but I could do a talk to a group. We all have something, but you just dive in, you dive in and do anything. That energy will bring attention to the books. That's exciting.

The value that I see for the listener is that you were a speaker before you became a writer. You have met a lot of writers. I'm actually going to learn a lot from this, and the listener will as well. What have you seen in how writers are using speaking to promote their books? How have you seen that coming up? I actually don't know much. So you'll be teaching me here.

Darryle Brown (48:47)

I think that for the most part, particularly at the writers' conference, many of the well-known authors have that opportunity in their keynote speeches, in addition to the workshops, where they share a lot of the experience and every bit of it that I have heard from each of these diverse authors.

Is that you tell you, hey, you're going to be met with setbacks. Not every book, your book or your style, your genre, is for everyone. And so don't take a declination personally as though your work is a failure because that's not necessarily true. You have to write to find the right person, the right audience and the right timing to give you the best chance and opportunity to find that success. It won't come overnight, and a lot of times there's a lot of luck involved when that opportunity, especially if it comes sooner than later. But similar to my experience, taking my time and continually polishing, working on the book and things of that nature has its biggest benefit because not only does your material develop better and increases the quality of it, but as a writer you grow. And the biggest benefit is your own growth more than even the material you write or create itself. So as long as you're growing, you're learning the lessons, and you stay focused.

Keep your vision alive on how far you wish to go as a writer, you will start to reap those benefits. Even if the book never publishes, for you to be able to complete a work and go all the way and look back and say, hey, I did that. That makes all the difference in the world on a personal level. And what I would tell any writer, even if you never publish a book or so, but that becomes your passion for whatever reason you decide to write. Keep doing it, don't give up. And you know, sometimes when you see those setbacks occur, or those declinations, and this is why I tell myself all the time, use it as fuel to make your work better; see it as a signal you still have work to do. I had two agents at that writer's conference who I had given one of my previous drafts to. The draft I have now is night and day. The feedback I got from these agents they did not they they declined, but the thing was that my pitch they loved.

And they were interested enough to ask for additional pages. There are a lot of times agents are not going to ask for additional pages. Most of the time you're going to have to rely on those query letters, and you're competing against thousands of other query letters that these agents receive every single day. So what's going to make your your stand out, your story,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:30)

Yeah.

Darryle Brown (52:31)

Your query letter?

And how are you going to connect to these agents is always the real challenge. So I'm a member of this one writers group that helps coach, mentor, and tutor me for that very purpose. Because yes, I'm competing against these agents that I've never met; they've never seen me, they don't know my material or anything. And so I'm competing against other aspiring writers as well.

And just because someone says no doesn't mean it's always going to be no. Because the ones that I have- this is one thing I learned about what I call my C-list agents. Not that they're bad agents, and I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is these are my C-listers, is because the types of books that they're looking for are multi-genre. And usually when you're dealing with multi-genre agents, not all of them have represented authors of your genre. So they may tell me, okay, they like romance, young adult, thriller. Okay, I'm thriller. I'm thriller. And so I wanna maybe send it to them, and maybe they check it out, and maybe they're interested. However, I have to keep in mind as well is that while they might be interested in thrillers, the time I send might my query letter is not the week they want, or the month they want thrillers. They want young adults. And so I may get a declination because that's not what they're looking for at this time. And so I had to keep that in mind when I'm dealing with those types of of of agents, is that when they're it just depends; sometimes it's timing. The time I send that query letter, I might be lucky enough that's the time they want a thriller. But

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:22)

Right. So

what you're learning from this is part of it is timing.

Darryle Brown (54:28)

Yes, yes, yes. And so that's why that's what I would tell any young writer right now, especially of this genre or another genre, and they're dealing with it, if they feel that their manuscript is truly ready and they send out a query letter, don't let that discourage you if they say, Hey, you know, I'm not looking for that genre at this time. It doesn't mean that your work is bad.

But it's not what I'm looking for at this time. And I take it in that fashion. It's nothing personal. It's not, you know, a bashing of my work. But what that does tell me though, is that I still need to keep working on my material to make it the best it can possibly be before I send query letters out to my B lists. My B listers might have maybe two genres that they're interested in. And so one might be thriller and one might be science fiction, for example. Okay. I have not sent my query letters to any B agents yet, or my A listers. My A listers are all stars. They're the ones they specifically read hundreds of crime novels, time thrillers every day. I don't want to them yet till I know that my manuscript is like this is what that it that that it needs to be in a position where it just reaches out and grabs these guys. Yeah, I want that one. I want that book, and they ask me for some

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:08)

Right, right.

Darryle Brown (56:09)

So, so that's what I'm doing now with my manuscript is that I want it to be so polished by the time it gets to these B and A listers that man, it just- man, they got me at the first page. You know what I'm saying? It's a

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:24)

Urge you to keep talking about your book, and personally, I look, I'm not a writer like you are. However, I believe that any creative work could always be different. There's always something to change, but I hope you'll reach a point where you put your work out there knowing it is.

A moment in time. You can write another book where you elaborate on something or add another story, whatever it might be- a prequel, anything- but you are at least pre-selling, so to speak, by promoting your writing before it is ready. I have heard from entrepreneurs who tell people to sell something, sell a product or a service before it is ready or formed. We can absolutely do that for our creative work as well. I can imagine you talking to so many audiences about your writing process to the point where everybody will know you are a Daryl the writer because you talk about it with so much energy.

That's what I was trying to say, that the writing is just a part of it. Going around and meeting

Darryle Brown (57:55)

Yes, yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:57)

people, going to a small social group, going to a conference, meeting people to talk about what you do is such a chunk of what you do.

Darryle Brown (58:09)

Yes, yes. And it's just seeing how far I've come from the time I did my very first draft until now. It's just really amazing because there were some parts of it where I was stuck, and I said, I gotta figure out how to make this make sense if I was going to do this particular, like, this particular character, or how am I going to make that plausible or believable for the reader? Because I never want to write something, even if it's fiction, where it's not believable or plausible or if it has a good flow. Particularly with this type of genre when it comes to crime and all that. I would want a cop to read my book and say, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we do that. We do that too. yeah. And that's how that's the this guy is spot on. It adds credibility to me, especially being a retired cop. I've got to make sure I get that right because you never know what kind of audience I'm going to be dealing with, or so. And I want to make sure that I get it right. Well, you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:22)

What do you mean there? What do you mean there?

Darryle Brown (59:26)

Well, you know, your audiences can vary. It doesn't mean necessarily that a person who picks up your book

is a fan of the genre, but somehow your book lands in their hands because this is different from what I'm normally read. Let me check it out. And I want to make sure that if it's something that someone would normally not read, would read this book and enjoy it; I mean, I've accomplished that much more. You know, because I'm actually building a larger audience of people who normally don't read this genre.

That is even more meaningful if I can draw those types of readers into what they would normally not read. Maybe it's someone, for example, somebody who's a primarily romance; that's all they read. But then they come across this book here, and they say, huh. I'm never I don't usually read thrillers, but when I do, I'll read The Kill Code.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:32)

As we wind up, as a writer and a speaker and as a former cop, what is your advice for anybody who is listening? For somebody to get out there and do the things that they have been hoping to do that they might be a little bit hesitant about.

Darryle Brown (1:01:00)

One of the things that I would tell people to do, find people who are like-minded, who share your concerns, fears, experiences, and things of that nature. What enable me to take that first step is aligning myself with the writers' groups. This would not be possible without the writers' groups, period. So having those people in your corner to

Just even just to encourage you. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're involved in any way with what you're doing, but tell you you can do it. And also that they're experiencing the same things. Having people in your court- don't go it alone is probably the best thing I could tell you if you're going to go into a scary type of journey like this. Because it is scary in a sense, especially if you haven't done it before.

By all means find that tribe, find that group that is that that shares that you share things in common with. And that will give you the best chance of really focusing on continuing the journey even in the midst of set setbacks and not have that desire to quit because you're going to also have people, detractors, say, you can't do that, or whatever the case may be. And that could be people close to you. So in order for you to be able to move forward in that journey, get with people who are like-minded, who are who's who have similar interests as you do. And then of course, not to

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:43)

Absolutely.

Darryle Brown (1:02:44)

Say that every relative or whatever people close to you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:46)

Mm-hmm.

Darryle Brown (1:02:48)

will be a detractor or discourage you.

But just be mindful that sometimes you want that cheering on from people close to you but might not come. So realize

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:00)

Fine. Yes, yes.

Darryle Brown (1:03:02)

Yeah, realise that there are other people out there who share your interest and believe in you enough for you to move on in that journey. Just make it happen. You know, so

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:12)

Make it happen.

Find your like-minded people. Find your people. That is a great message to wind up on. Connect with the people who will encourage and identify with the work and purpose that you are creating. Daryl, thank you so much for talking on the podcast.

Darryle Brown (1:03:35)

Yes, it is my pleasure. Call me anytime. I'll give you updates on what's going on with me, and hopefully my book will be available in bookstores in the future.