Podcast Episode: Marilyn Cornelius, behavioural change expert

Transcript

Marilyn Cornelius (00:00)

Imagination is everything. If you cannot imagine something, you cannot create it. My imagination is more important to me than anything else.

I try to cram lots of facts and trivia into my head. I like my head to be empty so that I can have spaciousness for imagination and for creativity. So I'll give you an example. When I'm walking after brushing my teeth, I'm carrying my toothbrush and I'm walking out. In that moment, I'll have a flash of insight and then a new book will have arrived. And so, actually being with yourself.

Being present with yourself is so important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:31)

Wonderful. Marilyn Cornelius, welcome to the podcast at last. It's great to have you on the show.

Marilyn Cornelius (00:39)

Thanks so much, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:42)

I'm alright, how are you?

Marilyn Cornelius (00:44)

I'm doing very well, thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:46)

I'm so glad you have explored so many areas of wellness. You have looked into behavioural change, and you also explored the difference that can be made by living sustainably and by eating sensibly. But let's start with how would you explain to everybody your professional background and what you do?

Marilyn Cornelius (01:13)

I would explain it as a meandering. So in high school, I really wanted to do a little bit of everything, which I did.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:16)

Okay.

Marilyn Cornelius (01:23)

And then it was really hard to focus. My art teacher was a little pushier than the others. And so I ended up in graphic design school. And then I noticed all of my art was about the environment. And when I looked at my portfolio, it was all about environmental conservation and the protection of endangered species and so forth. And so when I went for my bachelor's degree, the first degree I have is in associates. So when I went for the bachelor's, I majored in environmental resource management. And that's where I had my first awakenings about behavioural change. had a professor who was teaching me about the environment, and he was commuting every day for about three hours in his gas-guzzling SUV to teach me about the environment. So I got up in his face a little bit and I said, Hey, you know, what about this hypocrisy and all of that? And I was angry. I guess it was the activist in me. And eventually I started to turn that scrutiny inward, and I began to change my own behaviour. was, when I was born and raised in Fiji, but while I was in the US, 22 years total, a lot of my education was there, all of my tertiary education. So I never drove a car. I was always riding a bicycle, taking the subway and all of that because I was very mindful of my impact on the planet. And so after doing that degree, which was a really powerful one, we looked at not just management and business and environment, but we looked at spirituality as well. So I had a lot of awakenings, but it wasn't until I started my doctoral work that I was really hit by my research. I was looking at how our behaviour, our residential and business behaviours, daily actions that we take, impact and worsen climate change. And my dissertation is about reducing energy use and reducing greenhouse gas emissions through behavioural change. And one of the items of research that I discovered was that globally, greenhouse gas emissions through animal agriculture come to a very significant amount. And I was already a vegetarian for health reasons, you know, it just felt lighter. And then I went vegan on the spot. I decided I would be on a plant-based diet. So it was largely motivated by climate change. And then I had other awakenings about what animals go through, the torture and the slaughter and the industrialised system of, you know, animal agriculture and how harmful it is not only to animals, but to land and to water and to the climate. And I had some spiritual as well, around just unhooking myself from that whole system of torture and not putting trauma into my body because I am a trauma survivor as well. So I think behaviour change has become, as a professional, my foundation, and it's a foundation that's universal. So I apply behavioural change to everything, whether it's trauma healing or dietary change, mindset change, or a lot of my clients hire me to help them move toward the goals that they desire and the goals that they set because their behavior is usually going in a different direction and then they wonder why they haven't met their strategic plan and all the goals they're in. I think behavioural change has become something that I have a bias for. I look at things behaviorally. Are we actually doing something to change this, or are we just talking about it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:50)

Absolutely. Now I know that I have seen the difference in my life of eating real food, eating whole plants and trying to just be sensible about things like waste as well. But I know that our audience will have all sorts of preferences, and what feels right for them.

But the one common thread in terms of food that most people will agree on is that you're not going to feel better eating ultra processed foods. And we also know that there are some amounts of waste that just don't make sense. And there's something that everybody can do. Along with that, we're seeing an immense trend for entrepreneurs and people trying to improve their lives in any way, looking at behavioural change to figure out what the habits are that are keeping me where I am? I'm very curious about that because I have probably a lot of blind spots for where my habits are keeping me stuck and the listeners probably do as well. So, is there a way to get started in figuring out

What are we doing that we shouldn't be doing that can be applied to any of these things?

Marilyn Cornelius (06:12)

That's such a great question, and it's complex, so I'll unpack it best I can. So Melanie, one of the things that's worked for me is understanding limiting beliefs, which usually come from trauma. So at a young age, we're told things like Don't do that, What's wrong with you, Are you silly or stupid, You, this is not okay, Don't do it. And so whether it's done by caregivers, parents or someone at school, maybe a bully, you know, we start to hear things that nudge us to thinking that maybe there's something wrong with

us. And one of the limiting beliefs that I internalised pretty young was that I talked too much. And so I took to my diary, I would write instead of talking, and then I became a writer, you know, and now I talk for a living, you know, I give talks, I'm a facilitator, I'm a coach. So it's very interesting because the limiting belief was that, you know, something was wrong with me when I talk, and I need to stop. Another very gigantic limiting belief for me was that I could never write a book because a book is so big and it would never fit in my head. And so this was a limiting belief I carried for many years. And then 10 years ago, when I had changed my diet, I was already a vegan, but I went gluten-free, and I started to work on my trauma because I was having flashbacks about being a survivor and things that I had endured as a child. I was abused as a child, trigger warning. So, you know, I was two years old, so I had suppressed all of those memories. And then when I started to remember, I self-stigmatised and I thought there was something wrong with me. But then, as I worked on myself and I worked to heal myself, I went to many people for help. One of the limiting beliefs around the one I mentioned about writing, I could never write a book, started to melt away. And someone asked me for a set of recipes for Christmas, and I sat down to write a little booklet for her, and 39 recipes later, I had my first book. And so I published it, I shot the cover and all the art inside, and I had it published in five to seven days. And I realised there was something opening in me that wanted to write. And so I had been writing poetry for years, and I'm wrapping up my 19th book of poetry at the moment. I have 47 books that I've written to date, and it was like a channel opened, and I started becoming this prolific writer, and the books would arrive in my head perfectly formed. So completely defeating my limiting belief that they were too big to hold in my head. I've actually had to run out of a conference

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:14)

Okay.

Marilyn Cornelius (08:42)

To write a book one time. It arrived fully formed. wrote it from start to finish. And so this process is so exciting. And it's almost like getting out of your way and getting the limiting beliefs out of your head. So when we have limiting beliefs and other habitual thought patterns, they go into the subconscious, and that's where they live. And they're really strong. And what we need to do then is become aware of them. That's the first step. Once you're aware that you're having these thoughts that put yourself down, because maybe someone else did, then it's time to rewire those neurons. So every time you walk down that path of belittling yourself or doubting yourself, you've got to catch yourself. And you can only do that if you're mindful and aware and in the moment and present, not running and rushing, which most of us are doing most of the time. So if you catch yourself, then you think a more positive thought and say you're failing at something. And I'll give you the example of my swimming. I almost drowned when I was 10 years old. And so the fear set in pretty quickly, and I had a range of limping beliefs about my swimming. I'm uncoordinated in the water. I must have drowned in a past life. There's something wrong with me. I'm better off terrestrially. It's never going to be for me. Breathing is so hard, et cetera, et cetera. And it wasn't until this year that, because of an injury, I was told I cannot do my usual forms of exercise, lifting weights, doing Zumba, dancing, etc. So I had to face the pool after 38 years of not being in the pool.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:06)

Thank

Marilyn Cornelius (10:10)

And so took me a month to actually go to the pool. And then I got in, I bought a snorkel to help me breathe, a front snorkel. And I had, you know, the moment I started swimming, I just felt free. And then I started swimming more and more. And six months later, I did my first kilometre. That was last week. And now I'm working on my kicks. You know, I've become a swimmer. I cut my hair short. My whole identity has shifted. I love swimming. I cannot wait to go to the pool. I'm going every day. And so limiting beliefs play a large role. And if you're able to catch them and face the fears and do the things you really want to do, ⁓ that's huge. It's a huge, huge step, but it happens in small steps. So buying the swimsuit, buying snorkel, actually going to the pool, asking how much it's going to cost and getting in the water, even though it was really cold in the water and getting used to doing things that are uncomfortable. So breaking out of the comfort zone and making yourself a new comfort, but, it's fun. That's healthier, it takes work, but it can be done.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:14)

Are you saying it's okay to forgive ourselves for the time that we take to do one step and then the next step as we climb towards our new selves?

Marilyn Cornelius (11:23)

Absolutely. That self-forgiveness can only come if we've built a foundation of self-love and self-compassion.

And so one of my books is on self-love. And I talk about the fact that no one teaches it to you. So you grow up and you've got this very harsh self-critic that lives in your head. And so the way you want to talk to yourself is if you think about your favourite elder in your family, someone who's frail and maybe declining, or you think about the infant in your family, someone who's very vulnerable and beautiful and young, and how you speak to those two people. That's how you want to speak to yourself in your head.

So,

You know, when I tried to do my side breathing and I get water in my nose or in my mouth, I tell myself, oh, you're trying, it's okay. Just, you know, today's maybe not the best day, and you've tried, you've tried hard. So let's come back tomorrow. And then I keep coming back because if I am critical, I'll fall off the wagon, which, of course, many people do when New Year's comes around, right? You have those resolutions, you fall off the wagon and because you've berated yourself. that self-love is about being your best friend, being there for yourself, nurturing yourself, and the compassion comes to replace the harsh critic that lives in our heads.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:38)

Replace the critic in your head with something else with compassion. And as we have compassion, can still do the things to become the person. I'm wondering, it's so good the timing of this conversation because I've had so many questions around this topic. Identity. At what point do we know that we are having the right type of imagination about the identity we should become, and is there such a thing as too unrealistic? Is there such thing as being too unrealistic in the identity that we are trying to shape?

Marilyn Cornelius (13:20)

That is such a fascinating question. Based on my research as a doctoral scholar, I learned that teenagers are still forming their identities, right? So they are malleable. We implemented a behaviour change curriculum with them because they'd be more innovative and all of that. In my personal experience, I didn't know who I was even in my 20s. Even in my 30s, I don't think I really knew. I began to know who I really was when I started working on my trauma. And as I mentioned, I've become a prolific agent of writing or of books, like books happen through me. So how do I identify myself? These days, my identity has more to do with my service. What am I able to do for people, for animals, for the planet?

And it has nothing to do with my ego or my sense of self or who Marilyn is. That has more to do with my principles and my values. Depending on our spiritual belief system and our mindset, identity is either fixed or some parts are fixed and some parts can be changed. As far as imagination goes, I think imagination is everything. If you cannot imagine something, you cannot create it. My imagination is more important to me than anything else.

I try to cram lots of facts and trivia into my head. I like my head to be empty so that I can have spaciousness for imagination and for creativity. So I'll give you an example. When I'm walking after brushing my teeth, I'm carrying my toothbrush and I'm walking out. In that moment, I'll have a flash of insight and then a new book will have arrived. And so, actually being with yourself.

Being present with yourself is so important. But most of us are not comfortable with ourselves because we're carrying something, past pain of some kind, or adverse childhood experiences. So identity can become very complex and very conflicting. Because we're not comfortable with who we are, we mistakenly identify trauma as who we are. So you'll see things like self-loathing, self-sabotage, because people think, like you might think, I'm this horrible person. I feel terrible inside.

That feeling is something that you've endured and suppressed. It's not actually you. So, parsing out the trauma from within you and healing it is critical to figuring out who you really are. And I have a framework for how to step into self-love as a foundation and then do a series of deep dives into the trauma to heal yourself. And if you do that dive, those dives without your self-love, it's very dangerous because you can be re-traumatised. So you build your self-love foundation, do deep dives into your trauma, heal, and then you emerge as a true self, as your authentic self. And then you bring that authentic self to your career, which then becomes your calling, because now you're doing what you were born to do. So I think this process speaks to our identity. We can be unlimited. I think I'm proving this in my life. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to sit here and talk to you about it. I would have no leg to stand on. But because I'm living it, I can say it, that we are unlimited beings, and we're meant to create in our own ways, with our own specific sets of skills and talents, we have purpose here. We're not just here to pay bills and then die, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:38)

Yes,

Yes, we are here for more. We really can do more. I'm curious. So when we are setting up our next goals and figuring out, okay, here's one. There are so many options for what you could do and who you could be in the world, especially in this technological…

In this age where there are so many things that we could be, do you have any advice for someone who's sort of at a turning point, a in a road, perhaps a bit of an identity crisis? How do you help anyone to narrow it down?

Marilyn Cornelius (17:21)

Absolutely. This is something I work on in coaching. It's called my career manifestation program.

So I'm very familiar with this. also been through it. As I mentioned, my career has been meandering. So I went from graphic design to business and environmental management to behaviour change and climate change. And then, I never planned to be a coach; I became a coach because people started coming to me for coaching, and I became a facilitator because I started facilitating in grad school and discovered that I love it. So my answer is that figure out what you love, figure out what turns you on, figure out what doesn't feel like work.

For me, a lot of things fit that. So writing feels wonderful, helping someone, coaching feels wonderful, painting feels wonderful, cooking feels wonderful. I've done nine cookbooks, and I'm working on a tent. So there are things that I love. And so some part of that set of things that I love are going to become a stream of things that I do to earn money. Some of those things will be things that I do just for love, and I don't earn money. So I give away my art hanging behind me, some of it, I give away.

I love making art, and I don't love making it for money. So I've drawn that boundary for myself. So I think that self-knowledge is really important. So many times, we are so pressured and we become paralysed thinking about what we need to do and the roles we need to play in our lives. And so, easing that pressure and really finding the time to follow what you love, to self-reflect and to observe, I got into a flow state for two hours. Was I doing? I was doing this, and that is a clue because life is short, so why spend your time being miserable when you can spend your time feeling like you've never worked a day?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:10)

Exactly, life is short. Serious question here. You talked about the experience years ago of drowning and surviving. Okay, I'm going to have a bit of a stretch here, all right? I bet you a lot of people would be scared of metaphorically drowning. It sounds very cliched. It sounds like some sort of song lyric, but how many of us feel scared that we will perhaps fail, feel humiliated or lose everything? Or there are so many forms of things that could feel like drowning, suffocating, sinking, losing and so on. So how can we all get past those fears and pretty much anything?

Marilyn Cornelius (20:02)

I love your questions; they're beautiful. So this is a really critical question, I think.

One of the things that really helped me with this was when I was in my doctorate program in grad school, I took a class in design thinking, and it's a systematised methodology that comes from product design that's all about creativity, a systematic process to make you creative. And one of the mindsets is to fail early and fail often. And this mindset comes in when we're prototyping, when we're building a rough solution idea, and you get seven minutes to build it. So in seven minutes, you can spectacularly fail.

or you can build something but that might not be the right thing and so the idea is that it's rough and the idea is to get out of your head and just do it just build it and then learn from it and so I combined that with the learning mindset with the beginner's mindset there are all these different mindsets so let's look at it this way if I'm a beginner that means I already don't know too much so I don't have to be an expert I don't have to worry about not knowing and I don't have to worry about making mistakes if I'm going to fail early and often that's really important because if I fail early and often. I'm failing before I invest a lot of time and money and other resources. So it's really important to fail. So we're flipping failure on its head as a desirable thing. We need to fail. And then if I have a learning mindset, then I see every mistake as a learning opportunity. And I'll give you some examples that might be considered humiliating in my swimming journey. My friends, when I was visiting for a conference, I went to Berkeley, California, and my friends said, If you're having trouble with breathing and you want to start swimming, just buy us a snorkel. So I went and bought a snorkel, but it was a scuba diving snorkel. It was the wrong kind because no one said you should buy a front snorkel. That's for swimming in the pool. Then I bought flippers, again, the wrong kind. So today I went to the pool, and one of the friends I made in the pool was looking at my flippers, and he said, Yeah, those are for snorkelling. And I said, Yes, I know. I finally ordered the right kind, but they haven't arrived yet. So I failed miserably. I did some things that could be considered humiliating, stupid, or just completely poorly informed. I'm a woman with a PhD who's trying to face her fear, and I didn't do the research, right? I just went out there. just pushed myself out of my comfort zone. I failed early. I failed often, and I still swam my first kilometre. So I'm sinking and swimming, right? I failed in many ways, but I'm, you know, the thing that I'm doing that's important is I'm relentless. I show up, I keep showing up. And I know that my swimming journey is not only about facing my fear, it's about keeping myself healthy because fitness is important to me. It's a value. It's part of my identity.

And so there it is again, you know, what will it take for you to overcome those barriers? In behaviour change, we talk about barriers. So everything I've been saying, the limiting belief, making mistakes, being judged, feeling humiliated, shamed, and embarrassed.

know, social approval, social disapproval, these can be barriers for us. We might be people pleasers, so we just want to do things that will make someone proud of us, but we might be miserable inside. And so as a coach and as a human being, for me now, it's about what's going to make you filled with joy and what's going to be authentic for you. Do that, because life is short to be chasing other people's approval, approval of yourself, and be there for yourself when you fail so much that when other people judge you, it doesn't matter so much because their judgments are about them. It's about what they're holding inside. They're, in a sense, throwing a slime at you. You don't have to catch it. You can just let it fall flat and move on. Focus on yourself and do what you want.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:37)

People throw opinions at us and we can just not catch it. That is powerful, especially in an era when there are so many opinions available to us. There's the internet, we can be in big cities. I know some areas are more populated than before, and we're just so connected. But you don't have to absorb every opinion about you or about anything.

Marilyn Cornelius (24:05)

Absolutely. I've become.

very comfortable with being a weirdo. know, I may look and talk like a regular person, but if you come to my office, I have Baby Yoda everywhere. I'm framing a jigsaw puzzle about the Death Star. know, I'm a Star Wars nut. I'm a Transformers junkie. I have Optimus Prime and the Alchemist, book, sitting on my bookshelf because my company is named after both of them. The book changed my life, and Optimus has always been, you know, this amazing force for good over evil. So I flaunt my weirdness.

because it's who I am. I'm a dork. I'm happy about it. I love it. If you don't love it, that's okay too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:45)

so inspired right now because you're proud about being weird, but also you've made so many books, and you coach people and you teach people. That's an inspiration because I'll just go ahead and say some of what you've said, I suffered from the same thing. You said earlier that you grew up thinking that you talk too much.

Marilyn Cornelius (25:10)

Someone said that to me in school.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:13)

My goodness, sorry, I just paused and sank in that moment because I grew up, frankly, even to this day, some people think that I talk too much, but then get me on a stage, get me on a podcast, and it's useful. But the rest of the time, it's annoying. But you know, we really do end up, we really do end up thinking these things and it sounds like it's okay to be different. Be the one who talks too much because that's a form of weird. Even, sadly, it is still cultural to care about the planet. And I think these days I have been tiptoeing around the topic of the environment because I know that there are some people who care about humanity, but they're not prioritising the planet. And part of the balance or the tug that I think has emerged for some social groups is that people are still trying to live the life that they want or need to live to continue to maintain their family life, whatever it might be, and look after themselves within what they know within their surroundings.

And deep down, no one wants the planet to go. And whatever we think is the cause of that, we all know that we shouldn't be tossing loads of rubbish on the ground. We all know that if we became hoarders, it wouldn't be so good. There's a line for everybody. There's a line somewhere. So I'm really wondering.

How would you guide people who want to take some steps to simply be supportive of the planet? You don't have to be an activist and hold a sign somewhere. We don't have to be Greta, but how do you guide people who are not Greta but still just want the planet not to be rubbish, but are trying to, then still live in a world that's very modern? What do you recommend?

Marilyn Cornelius (27:24)

I just want to say Greta is awesome. ⁓ But yes, this is a critical question. You know, I've been on all sides of it. I used to be the angry vegan activist, you know, I've done demonstrations, I've done all kinds of picketing and all of the protests. I've been there. When you become an activist, you start to change your life, then you get really angry and upset that no one else is doing it.

What you forget often is that you didn't do it until you did. And there was some pivotal moment that shifted you. So seeing every person as a sacred person on their own sacred journey in their own divine timing will help us to just stop wanting to push people. So now I approach my activism with love. If I want people to do something for the planet, I do it. I'll just focus on myself. So I think my answer is go within yourself, find your authentic self, and figure out what your limits are, what your boundaries are, and what can work for you. And then do that. So if you can recycle and that's all you can do, do it. If you can stop driving for a day, do it. If you can give up meat for a day, do it. And then stop feeling guilty about the things you cannot do, because the things you cannot do are taken up because you're paying your bills, paying your mortgage, taking care of your kids or your sick aunt or whatever it is you're doing, right? So as long as you know what you can do, do it. Now,

I used to spend a lot of time stressing about everything. And people still ask me, How could you know what you know about climate change and not be freaking out every day? Again, my answer is about knowing yourself. So I know that if I spend all my time looking at the data on climate change and looking at the extinction of species and looking at the animal agricultural statistics and how all these videos that show how animals are being tortured, I will just be completely broken down, I'll be sobbing, I'll be crying, I won't be effective. So knowing my, you know, my self-care is about my boundaries. So knowing how much you can handle of the bad news and then limiting that so that you can be effective. So I can go out there and I can help people, I can coach, I can spend a whole week leading a retreat.

And I know the causes that I'm fighting for, but I also have to be good enough to fight. Because if I'm impaired and I've taken in too much of the negativity, I'm not going to be able to do much. So I think my answer has two parts. One is first, you have to know yourself enough to take care of yourself. And then two, figure out the parts of activism that work for you and do them and do them with all your heart. I met an architect who builds sanctuaries for animals, someone I met this year, and I thought, well, this is so inspiring. He's an architect, so he builds, and so he's building for animals. He's building sanctuaries. Mean, use your talent, use your uniqueness to do something that's meaningful to you. And don't only ⁓ expose yourself to things that drain you, because you need to be inspired to be a good activist. And my activism is about love. So instead of telling people, hey, you should eat this, it'll be better for your liver and better for the climate or whatever, I just cook, I take relentless

Pictures of food, and I have my diary on Instagram, my food diary, and I publish cookbooks because that is my love, and that love comes from my heart for the source of my food, which is the planet, and my love for animals. Not wanting to eat them because I want them to be happy and to be with their families, just like me. So living our values is a form of activism. You don't have to be angry. What if you were in love with life and in love with nature? What we revere, we would

of a harm. And so build that reverence for nature. And someone somewhere will look at you and be influenced by you, rather than you trying to be angry and then trying to be angry with yourself because you don't feel you're doing enough. So I think the love is an agent for activism.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:16)

Let's.

I think that we need to keep that mindset in our heads for how we relate to people we disagree with, and also how we worry about other issues like the economy. The economic trends at the moment, a lot of people are concerned about how the way work is done has changed, the way to support yourself has changed, and the cost of basic life has changed; a lot of things are shifting. So we can apply those concepts to that as well. Do what you can. But also the loving kindness to ourselves, but also to other people, I would encourage everybody to keep that in mind when relating to the opposite end of the political spectrum, whatever it might be. And even people within each political space, I'm curious if you saw as well that every group, it's nice finally saying this, every group is so clicky or reactionary in some way. Even within the mindfulness space, I was hearing about the politics of the mindful wellness industry, I

I'm seeing some nods. And there's the division of even within the plant-based world, not vegan, but so for those who don't know, vegan is save the piggies and the other animals. But plant-based is eat more kale, eat more cashews, that sort of thing. So vegan focuses on the animals, plant-based focuses on what you're eating. But it's often about your health, but even within plant-based, some people get so passionate. When I early on explored that scene, there were some people in the Facebook groups, no, you shouldn't have the oil at the top of a peanut butter jar because they're completely oil-free. So they expect me to throw out that oil because heaven forbid, it's oil.

Even though it was there, it's in the jar of peanut butter. And have you seen, actually, that's a good question for a behavioural change. Do you see people going to the extremes with anything?

Marilyn Cornelius (33:44)

I see it all the time, Melanie, so I've got so many stories. I've been judged for being a vegan. I've been judged for many things. And I joined a meditation organisation as a volunteer. became a trainer.

And there I was, abused by a narcissist because she was threatened by the way I was growing the movement. Here we are, volunteering our time to help bring meditation to more people. And I was getting abused in that organisation. So I had to leave the organisation. Of course, I still love to meditate using that technique, but I think there are extremes everywhere. And I think people will take something good, but their neuroses or their trauma will then show up. So whatever you're fighting in or for is like a microcosm of the world. So whether you belong to a political party or a meditative group or a particular way of eating or even the swimming group, you know, I'm joining one soon because my friend's an open sea swimmer so I don't know what kind of eccentricities will be in that group but I think people bring who they are and their level of healing or lack thereof to wherever they go.

So, you know, one of the things I try to do is I try to expose myself to newness. I talk to every cashier. I talk to every taxi driver, every Lyft driver. And I try to treat them as a human being. So I'll say, Hello, how are you? How's your day? Are you busy? You know, just I'm making conversation. It's a lot of people say, that's small talk. But I'm actually curious to see who this person is. I want to make a human connection with them. Maybe I have two minutes while they ring up my groceries, or I'm at the produce market.

I go with my parents to the produce market. Everybody knows who we are now, because we've been doing this. I smile and wave, I say hello, and now they do it too. And now, when one of us is missing, they'll ask, Where's your daughter? We still maybe don't know each other's names, but we have a community, a sense of connection to each other. And when I go swimming, I know the people at the front desk. Good morning, how are you? And so I never ask them, Do you eat plants, or do you eat too much oil, or which political party do you support?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:32)

Thank

Marilyn Cornelius (35:50)

I'm here for you as a person. I'm connecting with you in the moment and I think if we can do that, then I think we can do anything

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:51)

No.

Yes, yes.

It is partly about the sense of community and connecting with everybody and seeing everybody's value. And you can do that in small ways to just keep yourself grounded, but we also have boundaries, and it's just momentary when it feels right for us. And seeing everybody's values is crucial. I also found that everybody has a story.

This is why I've accepted so much variety on the podcast. I had experiences in my everyday life. I'd catch an Uber and realise that someone has a really interesting main query and might just be doing this to pay off some bills or whatever the reason might be, they could be a photographer or a chef, anything, but also sometimes people had career changes and one time months ago, to social thing, I met someone who did really interesting

I can't remember what sort of work it was, this fascinating electrical design, whatever it was, this interesting career and then just didn't want the pressure and decided to become a bus driver. Now that's, I personally believe in going up instead of the other way. However, you need to not take the granted. Do you agree we really need to not take the granted that anyone could have something that can teach you?

Marilyn Cornelius (37:29)

Absolutely. Think going up or down is a judgment. Maybe the bus driving allows the person to meet people, to not be lonely, to stay focused and present. Because when you're driving, you have to be in your body, you have to be focused. And maybe this other complicated electrical design work was just too much pressure. Maybe they were getting headaches, or maybe the quality of life wasn't there, and maybe the money didn't make them happy. So it really also depends on what you want out of your life. And again, the more we judge ourselves, I think, the more we judge others.

So pulling back on the judgment, extending the compassion, just being mindful that the person that you might hate online because they love Trump or they love the political party that you hate or whatever it is, also has a family might also be really effective in their job, but they have a belief system that's different from yours. And so, you know, the more people that we can extend our circle of compassion to who are different from us, the more peace we can build in the world, the more security we feel inside, we don't feel threatened. And this again, for me, the common denominator is trauma. If we're easily threatened, easily insecure, easily lashing out, there's something within us that's not resolved. And we're using that to project

onto others and to get triggered easily. So for me, every time I'm triggered, I have a post-it sitting here, right?

something else that I've typed up and put on my desk to help me remember what my triggers are and how to behave when I feel triggered, so that I can calm myself, soothe my nervous system and respond rather than react. So I think a lot of what is going on right now is reactivity, overwhelm, anxiety. And we saw that when COVID hit, right? We saw that. And a lot of career changes happened then, too. But I think there are a lot of people who are trying to figure out if they're awake or not. And when they do wake up, they take actions that maybe those of us with conventional mindsets may not understand. And that's a perfect opportunity to be curious. Instead of making assumptions, we should ask questions, and then we can learn. And this is part of the learner's mindset too. And I think a lot of our curiosities have become dampened because, as children, we probably got told off for being too curious and asking that why question over and over. So a lot of my clients, when they come to me, we do a lot of in our child work too, to try and reconcile. Where was it that you lost your wonder, your joy, your curiosity, your creativity, and let's bring it back. And let's let that lead you into whatever it is, whether it's a career change or an evolution into a new identity that you feel that you want to now discover. Because I do feel that we have an authentic self. It's about discovering it and removing blockages that prevent us from being who we are.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:56)

See you.

Thank you.

I'm wondering, do you ever have moments where you know that something is triggered by trauma, and you feel like you can't override this? Is there a point where sometimes we know we should be transcending the

the triggers within us, but it's so ingrained that at least for a moment, we are how we are, and then we realise afterwards, I was just feeling terrified again. Something was just switching. Can that stay for years or decades for some people?

Marilyn Cornelius (40:59)

Absolutely, yes.

I've been working on this with my therapist. So in my case, I've absorbed some of the harmful behaviours of a caregiver. And when I get triggered, that same tone comes out, you know, and all of a sudden I catch myself and I realise, my God, it's embedded and here it is and I have to stop it. And then I feel a horrible sense of guilt that maybe I've said something to harm someone because that's where it's coming from. And I know it's coming from there. And so this is, you know, something that I grew up with… I was born in

So it's deeply embedded in my body and in my body's memory, and so it comes out and it and I know what it is I'm working on it, but yes, it can come out and the word that you've used the phrase should be it should be gone. It's not gone until it's gone, right? We keep working on it and keep working on it, and a day comes when the instinct comes out like, know, you want to to react and because you are triggered and then you catch yourself and you soothe yourself. So I think we should look at it as ratios. The ratio of how many times I'm able to catch myself versus how many times I am swept away by the trigger. You we want that ratio to change over time and this is behavior change, right? It's one of the hardest things we'll ever do to catch yourself when you're triggered and to decide differently and to soothe yourself and to shift your behaviour and your thinking. And I'm in this right now. I'm working on myself all the time.

So yes, I know exactly how it feels. And it is difficult. And there's a lot of self-judgment that can come. Why am I still afraid of this? Why doesn't this feel safe? It's because it doesn't. And your nervous system's not ready. And so that compassion can come in and say, OK, we'll go around again. We'll keep going. I'm with me. And I'm safe. And if I'm not safe, I'm going to do what it takes to be safe. And so I have my practices. I do sound therapy for myself. I do meditations of different kinds. And swimming is a great way to practice process because I'm doing rhythmic breathing, I'm moving my whole body. There are lots of journaling, reflection, therapy, and lots of different ways to work on myself so that I can heal because I understand and respect that I was deeply traumatised when I was two. And that's not just going to go away. It takes work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:20)

What are some of the feelings that people could look out for that could tell them, okay, I am responding to something beyond this moment for me. It's an intense fear of fear of, of, oh, what is it a fear of isolation, a fear of being alone, that feels like the same thing, but it's sort of not, you can feel isolated when you're not actually alone. And there are other things that we can be scared of or perhaps I don't know if some people may be suffered from someone who is angry when they were younger and then there's a bizarre anger when they know, hang on, it's not going to be useful to be angry, but it's almost like we're just absorbing for a moment how someone else was. What sorts of emotions do you think can come out from all of this?

Marilyn Cornelius (44:17)

Such a great question again. Sophia, you talked about.

It's a big one because usually fear is underlying any other emotions, and one of those is anger. So anger and rage. When you start to feel any extreme emotion, really, when you're extremely angry, when you're in a rage, that is a moment where you should notice, like, is my reaction matching what actually happened, or am I being triggered? When you're extremely frustrated, and you just want to smash something, know that frustration is about resisting reality. So something's happened and you're not able to accept it.

That is a time to notice, okay, what is going on around me? Another one is deep sadness and sorrow. Sometimes you'll watch a movie or something happens, and you just start bawling your eyes out. It's a time to notice, like, where is this coming from? And grief is a complex one because we can know grief can take many, many years, but so can trauma. It can take a long time. And then another one is anxiety, anxiety and then panic. These are big ones when you feel like you cannot handle it overwhelmed.

And if it happens in a situation where other people might think, well, this is a benign situation, or why are you overreacting? That's when it's important to pause and figure out, OK, what is going on for me internally? This is a snapshot from the past, and I've just been transported there. And how do I come back to the present? And that's when we start doing the, let's count five things that are blue in my room. And then we start doing different exercises to become more present.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:50)

This reminded me of something. You mentioned Yoda. Do you think there's something legitimately psychological, especially from your behavioural change background, about that old phrase Yoda said of how fear leads to anger and anger leads to hate? And the dark side, what do you think? Is that where we're all heading?

Marilyn Cornelius (45:54)

yes.

Well, because I'm such a weirdo, I have an answer for you. I've written a blog about this ages and ages ago about why I love the Transformers, why I love Star Wars, and why I love the Avatar.

Each of the three franchises has a thread in it, in its philosophy about energy. Whether it's Energon for the Autobots and Decepticons or the Force for Yoda and Darth Vader. Or there was also the Tree of Life with its beautiful illuminated energy in Avatar. So I do think there's genuine wisdom there where Yoda is showing you the progression of how you can go to the dark side. And the dark side is your shadow side. It's the shadow work that we all need to do. There's good and evil, there's a dichotomy, there's a duality, but really we both have both. We have a light side and a dark side. We have the force in us. And something else Yoda said was, Do or do not, there is no try. And that's where I weigh in, right? I'm the behavioural specialist. So you can, it's a fun phrase that Yoda says, do or do not, there is no try. But I think time is important. Attempts are important, but those attempts need to be behavioural too. You can also attempt to change your mindset. That's maybe not so much a behaviour, but it can be seen as a thought experiment or shifting the way you think, but I think attempts are important. I tried many times before I could swim a lap. I used to get puffed out, and then I realised I had to slow down a bit. At the moment I slowed down and relaxed in the water, I was able to swim laps. So, change is difficult.

Humans struggle with change, but I also say this in a lot of my talks, and when I facilitate changes everywhere, it's inside us; our red blood cells are changing every three to four months. They die, and they're, you know, we create them. We're breathing all the time, the air that comes into our bodies is always different, and the air that we breathe out is changed. It's altered, you know, every system in our body is built on change, and if you look at quantum physics, everything is changing all the time. It's a wave in a particle. There's a duality

everywhere. Nothing is stagnant and fixed. And so wanting things to be fixed is a delusion that humans are trapped in. And I think we need to embrace our own capacity for change by facing our fears. And I didn't, you know, I'm facing several phobias. One is the fear of drowning. The other one was with cockroaches.

I'm definitely afraid of them, and I started to work on my fear by talking to them. So I would say, please don't, you know, I don't want to kill you. Please stay over there. I'm going to run away now, or you know, try to figure out how to navigate the situation where I'm not screaming and I don't have to call someone to come and kill that being. But I can face my fear. You know, fear is hard. Change is hard.

Overcoming barriers is really difficult, but it's doable. We can do it, and I am living proof, if anything. You know, if I can swim, I think anyone can do anything because I've definitely been afraid of it for 38 years, and now I'm swimming daily, and it took me about four months to just change my life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:35)

Was that swimming part of an identity shift? I'm wondering, were you not so athletic when you were younger and then embraced it?

Marilyn Cornelius (49:44)

I was athletic. was a terrible runner. I was not a sprinter, but I started doing long-distance running. I played netball. It was my favourite sport in the world.

And then, yeah, I took up cross-country running, and then, you know, I was always identified as a dancer. And so, since living in Fiji, I've taken up Zumba, but Zumba was really hard on my knees. And so, because of my knee injuries from that ball, which got reawakened, I had to find something that was low or low-impact. The only and the perfect option was swimming, but it was, you know, I had to face the fear. Now I feel my identity changing. I'm calling myself a swimmer. I used to have really long hair. I've cut it short because I

I have to wear a swim cap every day. And so I'm actually changing my life to morph now around swimming because swimming gives me a wonderful opportunity not only to exercise but to meditate.

And it's zero impact, so my body feels great, and I'm exceeding my fitness goals. So I was always doing exercise, but not like this, and now I feel that swimming is superior, and if I never do Zumba, if I can never dance because of my knee injuries, I won't be so heartbroken as I thought I was going to be. So the change in identity is possible.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:00)

It sounds like the identity happens when we do the things.

Marilyn Cornelius (51:05)

Yes, absolutely. And sometimes...

The identity happens, and then we do the things. So, for example, when I discovered the data on global greenhouse gas emissions, and I actually had a conversation with a mentor who told me the plight of calves who are taken away from their mother, from their mother cows, so that we can take the milk. And the compassion I felt for that calf, you know, the two things happened on the same day, you, the data I was discussing with him and then the story from India. I realised that I am a person who does not want to create that kind of torture and that kind of meanness, you know, to separate a child from its mother so we can steal the milk, you know. And so it was on the spot. It was like the clarity just came, and I realised, " I am not this person who supports this. And so my behaviour shifted immediately after. So in behaviour change, we look at the, you know, the theory that I study, it looks at reciprocity of three factors, three kinds of factors, personal factors, which is the way you think and your values, environmental factors, which are social and physical environment, and then behaviour itself. So behaviour can help you change behaviour. You do the things, and then you change. And you know, like with swimming, I faced it, I did it, and now I'm a swimmer. Or it could be a combination of those factors. It could be your identity, it could be, you know, these different factors are always working together. And so the more of these factors you can harness, the faster you can change your behaviour and the more sustainably. And this social cognitive theory. If someone wants to look it up,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:34)

Amazing.

Marilyn Cornelius (52:37)

I'm

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:38)

For sure. I like to wind up these conversations with three relatively universal lessons and calls to action because I love the number three, and I hope that as a behavioural person, behavioural expert, you would know that people can learn a few things, but we're not giving them a long shopping list of things to do. So

The great three, what are three things you think that everybody should keep in mind and start doing more?

Marilyn Cornelius (53:11)

So a beautiful question, and yes, as storytellers and people wired for stories, we remember in threes, we remember better. So let's see, three things that I would say. Number one, start noticing. Start noticing yourself and your reactions. Number two, be compassionate with yourself. Number three, find a path that takes you to your authentic self and be relentless with it. Just follow that path of authenticity.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:38)

Amazing.

Marilyn Cornelius (53:38)

So the first one is noticing, is mindfulness. The second one is compassion for yourself. As you are more compassionate with yourself, you will be with others too. And then thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, but the first two really allow you to do this, which is to follow your own path. Figure out who you are and be that person.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:56)

Marilyn Cornelius, thank you so much for talking.

Marilyn Cornelius (54:00)

That means a lot coming from someone who's faced the same thing that I faced. Thank you for talking with me. Thank you for building your career out of talking, and may we be blessed as talkers.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:13)

For sure. It was great to have you on the show.

Marilyn Cornelius (54:17)

Thanks so