Podcast Episode: Merciful Leadership with Dr Jeff Radford - American Assistant Pastor, Hospital Executive, and Founder of Mercy Leadership

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Dr Jeff Radford, welcome to the podcast.

Dr Jeff Radford (00:05)

Thank you. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:08)

Any time. You were telling me a moment ago about merciful leadership. Would you like to tell everybody about that and what exactly you do?

Dr Jeff Radford (00:18)

I would love to tell everybody about Merciful Leadership. So back in 2007, I was trying to figure out how that I would finish my doctoral project and in the doctor's degree. And the thought came to me about as I worked through that program and studied about different theories of leadership, but also evaluated leaders that I have worked for. In addition, the type of leader that I was, and this term Merciful Leadership came into my mind.

And really, I'll tell you, the secret sauce to anything is about forgiveness in the workplace. And when you read about other leadership theories, you don't hear a lot about forgiveness when you're interacting with other team members or employees or those that you serve. But the whole component of forgiveness is really valuing the team members that we serve. And so I appreciate the opportunity to talk a little bit about Merciful Leadership, how it was developed.

But really, what I have often said is that we're not just in the ‘business’ business, we're in the people business. And without people and without serving people and without people working with us, leaders would not be successful. So we have to value people within the workplace.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:34)

How do you balance forgiving people and achieving results?

Dr Jeff Radford (01:41)

Sure. Well, by valuing people, which is forgiveness, and if you go to my book, Mercy Leader, we talk about that a lot because there's different components of merciful leadership. When I talk about forgiveness, forgiveness doesn't take away accountability or expressing the results, but most people like structure. They long for some type of structure. So that's the results piece of it. I give my expectations. I set where those expectations are.

But if I don't value people and bring them along with me to help meet those expectations, or maybe I disregard them as a person and what they need, the resources they need, they'll never fulfil those. And so to achieve results, you have to value people. You have to put yourself in their shoes. What do they need? If they're failing, is it because of something as a leader I'm not providing or the organisation is not providing? And when we're actually collaborating together and allowing a workplace to actually flourish because I've got creators on the other end here giving me ideas who are expressing how maybe even my own decisions are impacting the workplace through a positive light or even through a negative light. I welcome that feedback because we're collaborating together. They're the ones most of the time doing the hard work. And so I need to listen to that and show them that they are important in that process. Whether as you're used to, we had the old factory style of leadership, to where in my book I talk about the gentleman would look down through the window and look at all the people working below and have a thumb-down approach. Well, that's not what we work in these days. We work in environments where people want to be part of the process. They want to feel part of the movement. They want to achieve the results, but we just have to give them all the tools and the feedback to help them with that. Whether it's positive or even constructive criticism, it's our job as leaders to give them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:31)

Definitely. When you talk about people having what they need, does that go beyond information and perhaps resources in the organisation to find some sort of flexibility in a way that still reaches goals?

Dr Jeff Radford (03:47)

Yeah, that's a phenomenal question, by the way. It reminds me of my studies several years ago, where a gentleman by the name of George Barna came to speak to us at the university. And he talked about the generational differences that we have. I think in the older generations, probably that factory-style approach, you could get by with it in some aspects. But we don't just serve that older generation anymore. We have a multi-generational workforce.

And when we think about that, we have to individualise our leadership to each level. And what George Barna talked about, he said, the younger generations are more like a mosaic painting. And I'll be honest with you, if I go to an art exhibit and I see colours splashed on a canvas, I can't really interpret that. I just see colours splashed on a canvas. But what he talked about is if you look at the art, there's always different interpretations about that art. And reading that, when we had this multi-generational workforce, this mosaic generational workforce, we really have to look at how we can serve each individual level. And so, bringing that back into the leadership context, we really have to go through that process and actually figure out how we can individually connect with each level of generations that we are working with. And from that, we've got to figure out what's important to them as well.

It's not just about what they're going to do for the organisation anymore. It's really about they're coming in to see what the organisation is going to do for them. So it takes a little extra effort, a little extra time, but the results and the value that it brings in the workforce really will take results to a whole other level.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:28)

What I was going to ask about results because I can relate to how people need, people need different things based on their diversity. I can relate to that so much, but there will be business leaders or even any organisational leaders asking, Yes, but what is the ROI on doing this?

Dr Jeff Radford (05:50)

Well, there's a lot of ROI. I mean, I think, you know, if you focus on the culture, people will want to stay in the organisation. So think about what we pay for when we hire a brand new team member employee to our organisation. We go through all the pre-employment things that cost the organisation money. We go through all the onboarding. It could take 90 days. It could take even longer than that, depending upon the type of role in the organisation. And then when we fail during that experience and that position turns over, we acquire that expense again and go back through the same old routine of trying to hire somebody else. We've got to learn that we, again, are in the people business. And it's really important that we create the best experiences for our team members through feedback, but also through their experience. And so what does that mean? Sometimes it's the small things. In one of the organisations I used to be CEO for, it was having their name on a name plaque when they came in for their first day of orientation.

It was asking the questions prior to orientation. What's your favourite candy? And people like, well, that's just too fluffy. It's actually personalised. And when they came into the orientation, they would have their favourite candy laying with their name plaque where they're supposed to be. And it was a wow factor when they first came in. It was having an employee advocacy program to where leadership members followed them, maybe not even their own supervisor, but somebody from the team would follow them in at least that first 90 days.

Make sure at a weekly check-in that they were following up to see how their experience was not just throwing them out to the wolves and Expecting them to learn because that's not valuing their experience That's just throwing them out there and then ultimately they will choose to leave or fail So when I think about the return on investment that first category of employee retention is Huge for any organization and it's important to any organization as well because when I spend time with hospitals or whoever I may serve we are always looking at the retention strategies for team members. And so we know that there is a huge cost associated with that. And there's less cost when you retain those employees. So that makes sense. We want to make sure that they're staying with us, but it's all going to be about the culture that we have, the positive culture that they are hopefully thriving in for our hospitals. So that's an ROI. The other thing that I would add to the ROI as well is that when team members are allowed to be in what I would call a psychologically safe environment, to where they can express their ideas, to where they can raise their hand when they see something wrong, then that also creates a component that saves cost. Because I would much rather somebody say, This is wrong and we can fix it, than to have a culture that's a top-down approach where nobody's creative, giving better ways to do it, making more efficient ways to do it to save cost, but also the creativity that they bring can actually enhance the results by the products that we produce or the patient care that we provide, the quality of care that we provide in healthcare. So that would be another ROI because I think there are better results when we allow a psychologically safe environment, which is all conducive to what I do as a leader and actually the culture they work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:07)

You answered one of the questions I was going to ask, which is how taking this approach can prevent things like burnout and mistakes in people's work as well. Do you think so?

Dr Jeff Radford (09:17)

Yeah, no, that's yeah. And I'll tell you, I work in health care. I've been in health care for over 30 years since the age of 17. I was riding a bicycle to the local rescue squad building as an emergency medical technician. That's how I got started in the health care. And from that, I've seen many things, but the most impactful thing that hit the health care world, it hit every industry, but I can speak specifically to health care, was COVID.

And in the COVID, I saw a lot of things that were related to fear, lack of supplies, answers that people were hungry for because they were scared in that type of environment. And from that, I saw burnout because we had an influx of patients that came into the system and we were not ready for it from an entire demand on the healthcare system. From that, I did see burnout. I saw people who decided maybe to leave for a period of time, leave healthcare, because it was just too much from what they had to experience during that time. Or other leaders, leaders have retired or gotten out of it because of the stress that it created. So when we work in an environment where people feel valued, there will be less burnout. It'll be more collaborative as a team versus a solo effect that often occurs in organisations where nobody's allowed to talk to each other, or an organisation that promotes blame to different departments without taking accountability. It takes open communication, nurturing and showing people that they're valued, that actually lessens the opportunity for burnout versus people who feel like they're in a silo, working by themselves, don't have a voice, and then they just decide to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:04)

That is spot on. I have seen that happening in similar sectors like education and disability over here. So we can see those trends that you have identified and the trends that you have led to solve. We're seeing that in multiple countries. This is not just in the U.S., it's not only in Australia, but I'm really keen to ask this controversial question. How can we figure out the burnout of leaders.

Dr Jeff Radford (11:37)

Well, I think we could actually gauge it just by, well, it could be interaction, number one, verbal cues, comments that are made, actions, gestures that come from the leader. You can often pick up when you observe verbal cues from someone. think sometimes results are indicative to burnout. So somebody becomes less engaged as a leader. They're not involved with their team. Their turnover spikes up. Quality starts to go down, and you often ask, Where's the leader in all this? And the leader could be checked out in the office and done, and not really wanting to express it, but that could be indicative of the results are not where they need to be. And it could be obviously an example of the leader in burnout. It could be direct follow-up with the leader. So in the people that I serve, leadership teams that we serve, we stay connected pretty frequently. And I look for cues that I may see whether it's enhanced complaints, complaints or more, or somebody's dissatisfied all the time. So there's negative things that I would see and pick up on so I could address them and say, hey, what's going on with you? I see something a little bit different in you. I actually have a, if you're okay, have an example of that in my own career. Would it be okay to share with the group?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:51)

Of course, examples are great, he can share anything.

Dr Jeff Radford (12:54)

Sure, so when I was first joined my current organisation, I was about a year into a chief nursing officer role, and I was working hard. We had a lot of call-ins from staff, and so I became the nurse on the floor. I was the leader, but I was working side by side with my staff. I was taking care of patients and not just administrative role, but I was also doing nursing duties. And I was doing that for several days in a row. And I didn't realise there was anything different about other than that I was committed, I was working hard, I was ensuring that our patients were safe. But my supervisor recognised that there was a change in how I interacted with her. And it was interesting because I didn't see it in myself, but she picked up on it because we were close, we talked frequently, we communicated frequently, and she saw some difference in how I was responding to her. So one day she called me into her office.

And you know, I'm busy. I'm taking care of patients. I'm like, what does she want? And so I go into her office as we sit down, and she said, What's going on with you? I see something different in you. I see that you're interacting differently with the other members of the leadership team. You're interacting differently with me. When I talk about things you're passionate about, I see a light come in your eyes or basically in your,

Your verbal cues. And then she said, But when I talk about things related to the hospital, I see a change in your demeanour. What's going on with you? And I still could not take ownership of that because I didn't see it within myself, although she did. And so she told me to go home and think about it and decide if I truly wanted to be the chief nursing officer. It kind of hurt my feelings to be honest with you, because I was like, I know I'm working very hard. I'm taking care of patients. I'm ensuring they're safe.

I thought about it through the weekend, and I came back on Monday with a renewed energy, and I told her I'm committed to be your chief nursing officer, and we worked very successfully together, and we created a great hospital environment during that time that we worked together. So even though I didn't see it myself, I had a great mentor, people who were surrounded around me that cared enough about me to say I see something different.

And I think that's the level of engagement we as leaders have to have. And whether if you're in a 5,000 employee organisation, I know that the CEO or whoever the senior leader is doesn't know all 5,000 employees, but it spreads out because we're the example. And so if I'm taking care of my core team and I'm engaged with them and I'm watching them and I'm communicating with them, it trickles as they are leaders of a core team. Then, and it goes on down to the frontline employee. So that would be an example of some things that I experienced in my career to where I had great people around me that recognised that I was going through possibly a burnout phase.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:54)

You had someone within the management of your organisation who could identify how you were really coping. And then you were able to find that motivation and spark again. I'm curious about, okay, I'll focus on this next question.

Dr Jeff Radford (16:03)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:16)

What would you say to people who still love their role, but they know that something needs to change in how the work is done? How perhaps there's a limit in resources to the point where people are stretched too far, like what you were describing, or perhaps there's a cultural issue. It could be gossip or anything. What do you say to people who love the work, but they know that something needs to change?

Dr Jeff Radford (16:44)

I would encourage you to find your voice. I think the worst thing that we can do is work in an environment where we're passionate about our work, but we're not satisfied with the actual environment we're working in, and we're not using our voice to speak that. We're all given a voice, and I feel comfortable in the organization I work in, and I try to encourage that with people on my team, is that I want feedback. I want to know what's going on. I want communication.

But I will also voice the same thing to the person that I report to as well. If there's something I don't agree with or I have concerns, I'm going to report that because that's the environment that we should work in. If there's concerns about that environment and you feel like you know that you have a voice, but the environment or the supervisor or the leadership team is not conducive to allow that, I think you have to evaluate, is that the right area to be in?

Because ultimately it will lead to your own demise in regards to your mental health, your psychological safety, your ability to achieve results, your ability to work ⁓ at the level that you want to. So you have to evaluate that. But I would also encourage to make sure that you try to find the avenues to express. So if your current supervisor is not one that allows that environment, what's the next level that you can go to help create change in the organisation if it's truly where you want to be. But important to also recognize that as leaders we have to encourage that as well. So I don't want to be that person to where somebody who I serve will not speak up because they don't feel like they can come to me. So I think we have to evaluate it on both sides. But I would encourage that you find your voice and use it as long as it's for the right perspective and it's constructive to help make the organisation better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:38)

Absolutely. Find your voice. That's very encouraging because people need to find the courage to repeat that word a bit because we talk about confidence, but there's projecting confidence, talking how we are right now. And then there's actually feeling brave. There's the approach of actually finding that courage within to say, okay, my perspective on this matters.

And I think that everybody needs to feel empowered. You are doing something very impactful here because especially whether someone is at the top or not, we're all scared of what people will think of us when we say what we need.

Dr Jeff Radford (19:24)

And I have felt the same way. So I think by putting myself or remembering some of those thoughts that I have, but I would call that so interesting enough, there's a book out there called Outwitting the Devil, and it's written by Napoleon Hill. Years ago, Napoleon Hill in the early 1900s or mid-1900s, he had written this manuscript and was afraid to actually publish it. And it was actually published after his death.

But what he talks about is he talks about the imposter syndrome that many of us go through. And when I talk about that for myself, I call it the other Jeff. And the other Jeff sometimes can be concerned about expressing his voice, about letting things of concern be known, because I think about, what will others think? Or how will they impact my job? How will it impact my productivity or what people think about me? But

Again, I would ask that we reevaluate the intention of it because we can respond in an emotional response as a trigger point, to where it's not constructive at all. But I'm learning as I get older and get wiser and longer in my leadership career that if I just take a step back and I pause and I look at the situation and I evaluate it and I say, how can my voice make a difference in this area versus automatically reacting or coming from a place of fear to where I shut down because I'm afraid, or maybe I'm not deserving to be able to say anything. That other Jeff, I got to deal with him all the time. And I've just got to push him out of the way because I have been put on this earth, and everybody has, with a purpose. And it's a purpose to make a difference. Whatever your passion is and whatever your dream and your why, you are created for a purpose. And once I tapped into that, I've found it a little bit easier to get that other Jeff off to the side and know that I'm gonna wake up every day and I'm gonna have a voice and I'm gonna make it be heard and hopefully help impact other people in a positive.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:33)

If you don't mind me sharing, I think you have identified something that I was dealing with very recently. I love talking, and I had to overcome the various lines that I'd heard from people over the years. It's not always just the voice in our head. People will say you had things handed to you when it's not true. People will say you're becoming too much like someone else or

Dr Jeff Radford (21:40)

Sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:02)

You can't fit this mould, or people call someone lazy when they are not. And people are going to have their opinions. But what you're saying is that we have our purpose anyway. And whether it's an opinion from within or from other people, we know our purpose and our voice. You've really hinted at spirituality, religion, or philosophy a few times here. And I am not afraid to look at that because

I think traditionally in business, in work, we were told to keep that separate, but I think that great leaders like you have been fuelled by the philosophical purpose. So I'm curious, how has your, how were your beliefs changing what you do?

Dr Jeff Radford (22:53)

Yeah, that's great. So I was raised in a pastor's home. My dad was a pastor of a church. I'm currently, and I won't call it my side job; it's a calling. I currently am an assistant pastor of a church. So I have strong faith in God. And I believe that God is a designer of us and he gives us, each one of us, a unique, individualised plan and purpose for us to achieve while we're here on earth.

And where it saddens me deeply is I see people that have such potential, but yet they are almost like robots on a daily basis, to where they do not go towards that potential, or maybe they've just given up. And I have been that guy, whether I've pursued a purpose where I think God has given me vision, which would be merciful leadership and leadership development, because our podcast, because I get jazzed up when I'm able to tell my story.

But when I think about times where people have said things about me, or maybe I feel like that I've invested in something and I've been done wrong, I've decided to lay it aside and just become my robot self and work, provide for my family, go to bed, wake up and do it all over again. But I finally reached a of a switching point in my life. Over the last few years, I've seen it develop over time where I've engrossed myself not only into God's plan for my life to achieve that because I I don't want to disappoint on that end I don't want I want to fulfill what that purpose is But I've also surrounded myself with appropriate resources that have encouraged me whether it's through people who are like-minded people that give me good feedback of hey This is I see where you're going with this. Maybe you should try this, or I've actually created more of my own sacrifices to say I'm going after this 110 % I'm going to go all in and I have found myself my mindset to evolve over time in my spirituality to where I want to fulfill that plan and I never want to look back as I get over and say I wish I had have done this and when I do that that's going to be a disappointment to myself and I don't want to disappoint God my family or myself and so doing things just like today where you've given me the opportunity to share my story, I'm going to take that opportunity and I'm going to go 110 % and hopefully encourage other people because I think that's what my passion and purpose is, is to give my story and say, I've been there before. I've been that guy that's laid that aside, that's given up at points and times in his life just because it got hard or it was uncomfortable or somebody said something or somebody wrote a negative comment on social media. But really, what I'm really going after, if I can impact one life, one life, then I know that I'm fulfilling that purpose I've been given. And you can see behind me, and I do this strategically, and a lot of people don't know this, but behind me I have globes that are world globes that are behind me. And you today have given me an opportunity to speak to someone in Australia.

And I don't know where your audience spans with, but that's my goal back here. And that is to change the world with the message of hope and the message of merciful leadership. And to say, we've got to get back to making sure people feel valued because there are too many workplaces out there that treat people as their employee number or that just treat people bad in general. Take it out of the business context that we see so much negative in our world, but I still believe that there are good people with good intentions that have a purpose to fulfill. And I'm on a mission to help change the world. You see them behind me and I'm encouraging people as I go through that process. That's my wife.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:44)

That was worded so perfectly. And that is the most enthusiastic talk I have ever seen on the show. I know it has only been around for a few months, but out of more than 40 guests, that was the most enthusiasm. We went in a few directions that I wanted to look at more here. Guiding people beyond work. I'm curious about that. Because you talked about valuing everybody and

Dr Jeff Radford (26:52)

Thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:12)

I think the whole world is becoming a bit politically interesting at the moment. How do you think we can all see the humanity in everybody, regardless of their perspectives?

Dr Jeff Radford (27:27)

Yeah. Can I tell you, I'm still working on me in that area. think, I think we probably can easily go to this judgmental type mindset, to where if we see somebody in need, we're automatically, well, there's plenty of jobs around. Why are they in need? There's jobs around. I've been that guy. I still have to fight that guy at points in times. But I think what I have to do more importantly is, is remember, and I'll go back to the spiritual relationship that I have if that's okay. Remember that there's a God who overlooks my own failures because I fail as a person. I'm not perfect by any means. I have had a judgmental type lens at times where I've looked down on people, and that's not the right thing to do. So I have to remember that how can I extend the same love that I've been given, the same grace, the same mercy, which I talk about in the workplace that I've been given and see the impact of that. And when you do that and people are in the right intentions of the receiver, the other side, you see the impact. So outside of the workplace, charitable events where, you know, my family, and this is not bragging by any means, but my family has helped another family at Christmas time. And to see the eyes of the children light up when you give them a bicycle and presents, because they wouldn't have had anything for Christmas.

That's what I'm talking about. There are good people that are going through hard times, and they just need to have some kindness extended to them during the hard times. Or evaluate it further. Ask open-ended questions to say, kind of tell me further what's going on, versus being judgmental and shutting it off. And there are going to be people out there that are taking advantage of others. I've seen it happen in the world. But I go back to say there are still good people out, and I've seen it in all my travels, whether through work or through traveling on vacation, I see good people. And that gives me hope in humanity. And it's my purpose, my job, my calling is to be a good part of that and not be the negative end of that. So looking for ways to serve, looking for ways to give back, I think, is so important so we can extend kindness and continue it throughout.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:50)

Yes, for sure. And you said that you work at a church and you also work in another organisation. You work in nursing, and I'm wondering what inspired you to do both. And I'm hoping you could inspire more people to work in corporate or some sort of other organisations, but also serve the community because I saw in Australia at least that a lot of people just wanted to do jobs.

And they're not really looking so often at how they can also lead communities to bring people together. How do you think both of those cross over?

Dr Jeff Radford (30:30)

Yeah, so that's great. And I referenced Napoleon Hill again, because I think he's such an interesting individual. And when you read his work, he talks about charity and charitable giving. And then a lot of successful people, that's one of the keys, is that they continue to give, and all of a sudden it's given back. It's given back to them, and maybe an increase. And there's a scripture that talks about that. And actually, in the Bible, it talks about giving the other people, and you'll receive back. The intention is not to give back.

The intention is, is when you take your focus on yourself out of the way and just focus on other people, you'll be amazed at what comes back your way. So it's with the right intention that we give back. And so when I think about how I first got into healthcare, I truly got into healthcare because my dad was in it. My dad was an emergency medical technician in the rescue squad. He was a pastor, and I wanted to spend more time with him.

So I joined selfishly to spend more time with my dad. Over time, though, I realised that my nature was to take care of people. And whether it was through an ambulance service, in the back of an ambulance, taking care of emergency calls, or the decision to expand that by going to nursing school. And I found that my path, my doors just opened. It's really strange, but that's just my story.

That, although I had these career aspirations and that may have been selfish aspirations at the time, doors opened when they needed to open for me during my career. And I had to be willing to say yes to walk through those. And I found myself going from the bedside to the boardroom. It was a natural progression that I walked from nursing into my first leadership role, which was managing an orthopaedic practice of about 14 employees.

I didn't know what I was doing. I had 14 employees who relied on me. And back in those days, we hand-wrote the paychecks. It was really an antiquated type system. But as I worked through that, I started to realise that the words I said, people hung on to. Every interaction I had, they were looking at me. Every way I behaved, they were looking at me. I should have known that, as a preacher's kid, because that was the same thing when I was in the church.

People would always look at the preacher's kid and see how he was acting. But I found that in leadership. But I also found that when those doors opened, it wasn't about the title anymore. My perspective shifted. It was about what could I use that role to make the biggest impact? The way that I communicate, the way I influence, the way I interact, the way I get to know people. How can I help them grow? What can I do in my role to help them get to the next level?

How can I take my role now or social media, which is what I'm doing a lot these days to help encourage people now. And if your heart, and mind, and goal is to truly fulfill your passion and help other people, that energy is going to transpire into what you do each and every day. So I would encourage people is don't give up on your dream. Don't give up on your passion, no matter how hard it is. And there are some days where I post a video and I may have 10 views.

But do you know what I do the next day? I post another video because I had 10 views. 10 people watch that. That's important to me. I want thousands of people to watch it, but 10 people still watch this. So I'm going to keep putting out content because I'm going into my drive, my life. So don't give up, no matter the obstacles, no matter the blood, the sweat, the tears, how hard it is, the naysayers. If it's truly what you're called to do, go all in and quit messing with your other self, that imposter, because I'm an example sitting here that the doors have opened for me and now I'm in a regional role where I support 12 hospitals, but I used to be a 17 year old kid riding a 10 speed bicycle to the local rescue squad. I've been very blessed in my life, and I don't take that for granted.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:40)

That is very, very motivational. And I was going to ask all sorts of administrative questions, but to ride this wave for a moment of doing what we are designed to do. I'm very keen to ask you after you worked in areas where family had also worked. I'm so keen to ask. There'll be people out there whose family did any sort of work. It could be anything. And then they are wondering, do I want to do the thing that family did? And I've seen that occasionally on the show, some other guests ended up in that situation. And I'm wondering, did you have any learning curves of trying to find your own approach to the same industry or figuring out, okay, figuring out, it is really what you want to do and not just what the other generations did. How did you relate to all of that?

Dr Jeff Radford (35:43)

Yeah, I would use extreme caution that you're not family called. And families may not appreciate that answer, but I think you have to figure out things for yourself, for sure. There's a point in time in our life where we have to become independent. And we have to be independent thinkers and figure out what really, and you'll figure this out. For instance, not everybody enjoys healthcare. That's a fact. If it was, we wouldn't have a nursing shortage. But not everybody enjoys healthcare.

Not everybody enjoys manufacturing. Not everybody enjoys being a lawyer. Those type of things. And so if mom and dad and family say, come on in, this is what you're supposed to do, find your own voice. Let's go back to that. Find your own voice. Because if you get up every morning and you dread going into that, I would suggest that that may not be where you need to be. My daughter is a great example of that. I was so excited that she got accepted into a university into a nursing program, check mark, and then she also got accepted into the honours program into leadership, check mark. I was like, yes, my daughter's falling into my footsteps. Until a few months later, she called me and she said, Dad, I don't wanna be in nursing. And you know what I said to her? Not, hey, you need to just hold out and you need to keep on because this is where you're gonna be, job security, et cetera. I told her, Get out and get out fast, because if it's not something that she's passionate about, she will be miserable her entire life. And what's more important, living our life or letting life live us? I want your viewers. I want people to think about that. Are you gonna live and be in control of your life? Are you gonna let life be in control of you? I choose to be in control of my life because I know what excites me and what I love to do. And I love to do

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:22)

Yes.

Dr Jeff Radford (37:39)

Leadership, leadership development, what I'm doing now. So I told my daughter, I said, Get out. So then she goes into a sociology program, and she stays in that for just a little while, and she calls my wife and I, and she said, Dad, Mom, I don't want to be in this. I said, Get out, get out of there. And she went and she pursued her dream through a national college that's recognised in the field of music. And she got a degree in songwriting, and people will say,

Well, how's she going to make a living on that? I asked the same question. But what do I see while she's employed? She's taking care of herself. What do I see in her face and her actions? I see somebody that loves what she's doing, and she's writing words that make a difference to other people. And so that was her passion, her calling. I could have said, Go in my footsteps, but she would have been miserable the rest of her life. You have to find where you feel comfortable where you're passionate about despite the income. Now you have to take care of yourself and I'm all about that, but you have to be passionate about what you're doing. Otherwise, you're gonna be that robot who was programmed as a kid, and you're gonna just be miserable the rest of your life and not productive in the way you were designed to be. That's just how I feel about

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:56)

Definitely. Have you seen in the medical world in particular, have you seen that some workers have better results and create more value because they feel passionate about helping people? And yes, that's clear in your journey, but beyond that, I'm hoping that you can share more stories of how, when people really care,

And when it feels like they're calling to make a difference, then it can actually help the health of patients or the customers of whichever industry.

Dr Jeff Radford (39:36)

It's extremely palpable. When a nurse walks into a room, a patient can sense and pick up if they're there for the right reason or not. And here's what I mean by that. I've had several employees, team members, I prefer to call them team members. I've had team members go into a room, and a patient will send me a note, send me an email, write a letter, write a compliment to talk about the personality of that nurse, always going above and beyond, and then you immediately know they're doing the right thing for the right reason and not just for the pay check. I always have said to my staff, the paycheck is a benefit of what we do. All of us need the pay check. We need to live and survive and take care of ourselves. But the benefit of what we do is the pay check, not the reason.

We should be doing what we're supposed to do because it's exactly where we need to be. And you can see that. You can see the results in a hospital and the quality, the quality data that comes out, the retention, people who've been there a long time, all those types of things come together when people are in the right place, and you've picked the right people that went into the profession because that's what they're supposed to be doing. You can easily walk by somebody, and it's palpable when they're there for the wrong reason.

It is so much all over their face. They're disgruntled all the time, complaining all the time, and they just are miserable in what they're doing. It's very, very palpable. And it comes across. It comes across from their hands to the patient because the patient can easily and family perceive who's in there. And I've been on the other side. I've been on the other side as a patient. My family's been on the other side of a patient. And you can pick them out easily of the people that are loving what they do. You can go to Walmart here in the United States and pick out if the cashier loves their job or not. I have purposely said, because somebody has a frown on their face, how are you doing today? And it was the biggest mistake or one of them in my life, because they're gonna tell you and they're looking at the clock of when they're gonna get out of here, right? Or there's a guy in my local Walmart, his name is Jason. And why do I know his name?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:46)

Why?

Dr. Jeff Radford (41:58)

because Jason loves what he does. And when I see Jason, when I go into Walmart, we, my wife and I, go through his line because we just like talking to Jason. We need more Jason's out there. People who are in it for the right reason, whether it's in factory or retail or healthcare, that are in it for the right reason because it is very palpable among the customers, or patients, or families.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:23)

Definitely. I would love to tell you about my friend Kate. My friend Kate, months ago, she was becoming the face of some local brands in very localised ways, but she made the time to sit down for a coffee with me when I wasn't feeling all right. And then months later, she switched to become a mental health worker, just working directly with people. And she realized,

Dr. Jeff Radford (42:27)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:53)

She just wants to do that with anyone all day. And that really taught me something. And I hope that more people might do that, where it's not always about doing the most glamorous job, because if someone really cares about people, then they might want to be checking on individuals to check, are they okay? Because someone needs to be doing that. And I saw that some locals are finding the people who are passionate about it. And it seems like you saw that even in the Walmart. I'm curious. Do you know what motivates Jason to love doing that work?

Dr Jeff Radford (43:37)

I do not, but I have been drawn to him because even if he's pushing buggies carts out in the parking lot, I've been drawn just to say hi to him. Or if I'm not in his line, which I try to get in his line, but if I walk by and I see him, I say hello because I can just tell. He asks how you are doing. As he's putting the barcodes across the scanner of the products,

He's talking to you, he's engaging the customer. He's been there for many years. His service, his tenure, is very long at this specific store, and he's just genuinely a nice person. And when you go through his aisle, if he asks you how you're doing, you know he means it. You can feel it. And so you have a good conversation, which makes your experience a better experience at the store.

If you go through someone who's very negative and is talking down the entire time, you just can't wait to get out of there. You've not had the best experience at all. So I like the Jasons. I'm drawn to Jasons like that. Or people in healthcare specifically, where I've seen bad experiences with patients and I've seen good experiences with patients. And the good experiences come from the caregivers who truly are passionate about providing and doing the right, providing great care and doing the right thing all the time. That's what they, and when something goes wrong, they're immediately transparent about it, and they're part of the solution to fix the issue so it doesn't happen again. Whereas other people can just disregard it. I mean, you think about people who see trash in the hallway of a hospital. That's not a good thing for families and patients to see, a dirty hospital, right?

The people who own it are the people that will bend over and pick up the trash. And that seems simplistic, but that's an example. It's not even necessarily their role, but it becomes their accountability and ownership because they own the job, they own the environment, and they want it to be as best as it can.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:50)

guessing you are saying that lives can actually be saved in some ways when people are nurturing the environment and the people over there to make sure that people are okay, because you are dealing with people's health.

Dr Jeff Radford (46:06)

That was so evident in COVID. So I'll go back to that experience. We had so many very, very ill patients. And there were some that I was concerned about. I was a CEO at the time, so was not a nurse at the bedside. I was a CEO of the hospital. But I would go into their rooms and just try to land an encouraging word. You can do this. You can make it. It will get better.

And even when the doctors maybe had some doubts, it was that you can do this. I'm visiting with you. You can get better. And my staff, not just me, but a lot of my staff members doing the same thing, just encouraging, creating a healing environment. A lot of the mindset, like mindset, is so important even when you're ill, because you don't necessarily have the energy. You have doubts. You wonder if you're gonna make it.

And even, you know, we call it the man code, right? When men get cold, people say you got a man code because we're always, I feel so bad. I can't make it. But a lot of us, the mindset is the thing we allow in there because we can overcome just sometimes through our mind and surrounding ourselves with great caregivers who come in and push us and encourage us and tell us they've seen this before. You say, OK, yeah, it's not just me then. This has happened to somebody else, and they've seen them go out there and walk.

We brought former patients in to visit patients to show that this person was just as sick as you were, and they went out and now they're working again. So we did things like that to encourage people. And one of my favourite stories happened during that time, where there was a younger patient without going into great detail, that had COVID and was very, very ill. And two or three times it was thought that he may not make it.

And just this year, this is after COVID, he's progressed, he's gotten better. Just this year, just a few weeks ago, actually, I attended his wedding, and he is driving again, he's married, and he has survived, and he's done such a great job. But I remember his mindset during that time, where he just didn't know if he was gonna make it, but we all rallied around him. He had a great family support unit, and now he just got married just a few weeks ago. So that's an example where it's so important in the healthcare world that we encourage each other and really try to nurture our patients and take care of them because it gives them an ounce of hope. And we should always give hope when hope is allowed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:39)

We are seeing the power of belief and hope. This is a significant lesson from you because you are clearly quite a speaker, and you work with religious beliefs and religious hope. But in your work, within a work context, you have seen that people can revive and heal. They are hanging on. I'm curious, what do you think it is? Is it that they have more willpower? Is that?

Dr. Jeff Radford (48:43)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:09)

Is it that they are perhaps trying to do more to heal, or just also that perhaps they are relaxed? People talk about the nervous system these days. Do you think there are all sorts of factors, or also something spiritual, whatever anyone might believe in, that's guiding people to simply heal more when they have more hope?

Dr Jeff Radford (49:32)

I think it's a multitude of things transparently, but I will say that some of the most strongest components I have seen is the person's faith and the person lacks faith, the faith of those around him or her who's encouraging is like you just take one more step. You got to go right. And it's people lifting their arms up, when they don't even feel like lifting their arms up because there are times where we just don't feel like it. But that's when our network of people kicks in gets us over the hump. Right? And I think that's so important to consider. So when I'm not my best self, I've got great people I've surrounded myself with that are the encouragers that help me get over the hump. And that's in any setting. Our own lives, our personal lives, that's hugely important about the people that we surround ourselves with. That's very, very important. I do think faith and spirituality is important. I've seen it. I've seen miracles happen. I've been part of miracles. Mission trip to Honduras. I've been part of a miracle, to where I know without even thinking that God is real, and I experienced a miracle on a mission trip to Honduras. So I've seen that from a faith perspective. People who have faith and pray and believe in a higher power to get them through, and so they remove themselves out of the woe-is-me, the victim mentality, and they rely on a higher power to get them through. I've seen the importance of that, seen the importance of prayer, of unity, of people unifying around someone, whether it's within the patient's room or across the world where people are sending emails and Facebook messages, et cetera. I'm praying for you. That gives hope. That gives encouragement because you've got a network of people that expand out from your small network that are encouraging and saying, I'm thinking about you today. I've seen that. I've seen little simple acts of kindness to where a gentleman that we had that had such breathing problems and we figured out a way to get him downstairs to the main lobby to play the piano one more time. And after that, he started to improve because it was something he was passionate about. And we opened the avenue for him to do that. And by that, I saw his demeanour change, and he began to get better to the point where he got out of the hospital. We had dinner together or lunch together three or four times after that because he was better and doing well, because we had nurturers and people around him, and we got him to do something that he really enjoyed doing. So those are different variables, but I would say outside of healthcare, I think you have to be careful about who you surround yourself with. If you have people inserting negative things all the way in your life, you'll feel devalued, you'll lose hope, you won't have strength, but you've got to tap into different things. I rejuvenate myself through motivational speeches, or I listen to YouTube videos that I know are encouraging to me, or I study work, personal development that I know is encouraging, where I can change my mindset and take control of it. Or just like we're doing today, I believe we're encouraging people today that when this comes out, somebody's gonna watch it and say, yeah, she's speaking to me or he's speaking to me. So these are the things that we have to surround ourselves with, with a positive environment, because it will work on our mindset and feed positive into our mind, versus if we feed ourselves with negative, we're going to lose hope and lose sight of what we're supposed to be doing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:00)

Do you think that everybody needs to find the people who will say the equivalent of pick up your mat and walk?

Dr Jeff Radford (53:09)

I think it's important. Now, I also think it's important that we find people that maybe don't always agree with us, right? So that people can realise that we're going down different avenues that maybe we shouldn't be. And that could be the same network of people, quite honestly, because it's transparency around us, right? Not people that are always putting us down or you'll never do this or whatever, but it's people that believe in us, that people are like-minded. And Napoleon Hill, I'll just throw that name in again, he calls it a mastermind. Mastermind of people that yet you can actually have good dialogue at the table about maybe this isn't the direction we should be going, but it's still like-minded people with the same values that we have. And that's where I want to stress that. So my wife is a wonderful example of that. She has the same values that I have, but she doesn't always agree with me. And that's okay, because it helps me see from a different perspective. But I know when I need encouragement,

I have a great helpmate to provide that for me. When I know that I'm in a little bit of a slump, I've got a great helpmate that recognises that and helps me along. So she essentially is that person that says, Take up your mat and walk, because we're like-minded. So that's where I would stress more is being like-minded people around you that have the same values and morals that you do. So they'll even be honest with you, and it may not be the feedback you want, but they'll give you feedback to say, this is where I see you're headed, without degrading who you are and your values. I think it probably catapults off of that to say you've got to have like-minded people around you that are just open and honest.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:44)

Definitely. Winding up, how can people continue learning from you? I know you are serving a church and you are serving your hospital world, but, or your nursing world, but I know you are motivating people so much, and this talk has been so powerful. So I'm curious, how can people connect with you beyond listening to this episode?

Dr Jeff Radford (55:07)

Yeah, no, thank you for that. I'm on the social media channel. So if you'll look at Jeff Radford or Dr. Jeff Radford, YouTube, Instagram, also Facebook and TikTok. I'm actually on TikTok. So I've learned a TikTok a little bit. I'm putting social media content out all the time. It's about leadership content. If you go to drjeffradford.com, you'll see my website. There's ways to connect with me there as well.

I have a book called Mercy Leader, if I could just hold it up and just let the people know. This is where I drive a lot of my own leadership values, try to practice them, try to continue to develop. So that's on Amazon. So that's a way to kind of know some insight of how I lead as a leader that I think is very positive in organisations. So, and then if you get on my website and shoot me some contact information, I'd love to interact with you or send me a direct message on social media. I'm the one that responds to that. Nobody else responds; it's me.

So send me a message, and I'd love to interact with you. And if there's any way I can encourage you, please let me know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:09)

Dr Jeff Radford, thank you so much for being on the show.

Dr Jeff Radford (56:13)

Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity, and thank you for the work you're doing as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:17)

I appreciate that so much. Thanks.