Podcast Episode: Therapeutic Yoga with Amanda Baker, Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Qualified Yoga Teacher

Transcript

Amanda Baker (00:00)

You can live in a way that I say sometimes it's play versus work. I get to like play and make an income. It's my instead of saying this is my way of survival or this is my way of making money. It's like I can make a living by being myself and it's very, very fulfilling.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:18)

Amanda Baker, welcome to the podcast.

Amanda Baker (00:22)

Hi, yeah, so nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:26)

Would you like to tell everybody about your amazing therapeutic background?

Amanda Baker (00:32)

Sure, yeah, so technically I'm a licensed clinical social worker or a mental health therapist. I have been for over 10 years, and you could say that's my professional label as well as I am a 500 hour trained yoga instructor with a specialty in yoga psychology. I also write poetry, I'm very creative, and so even with all of these identities, I am more so I now say that I am an intuitive human that's guiding and facilitating other people to their overall well-being.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:08)

love that. And it's such a powerful combination coming from a therapy background, but also being a yoga teacher because yoga has you seen that yoga intertwines genuine ways to heal the mind and also be present? But have you also seen how the philosophical side can guide people into a better life as well?

Amanda Baker (01:36)

Yeah, so so much, you really hit the nail on the head with that, because when I decided to do my yoga teacher training or take a yoga teacher training, it wasn't really for the aspect of healing or even to utilise in my job or work that I do with people. It was just because I like yoga and I wanted to know more about it. I wanted to deepen my own practice. And while going through the training, I noticed kind of my own progression or my own transformation of beyond just the physical aspects of yoga. So yes, like you speak, there's the mindfulness piece, the philosophy behind it, the way of living that it supports, that really brought me into a better understanding of myself through so much of the practices and the literature. And then I could integrate that and adapt that to the work that I've been doing with people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:31)

That's amazing. And I want to acknowledge your wonderful approach to blending together your various specialties. think people can learn from that from the get-go with how you introduced yourself, because we heard a phrase years ago, slashies. I'm this slash that slash that slash that. And you're sort of a list of things. And we've reached a time where people do so many different things, But it looks like you have a way to bring it all together into one unified purpose.

Amanda Baker (03:09)

Yes, and that wasn't anything that I planned and that's also what I love sharing about my story is that so much of this coming together in this way that really feels bigger than me that really feels though aligned with what is purposeful for me or what you could say my purpose is that I didn't expect this to come about but it has supported and helped me so much and as you were talking, I was reminded of a yoga retreat that I went on last year and a part of that retreat, we were all asked to write kind of this list of identities, a list of who you are. And as people went around, and this happened twice, because it also happened at a work event, like a work team meeting, and we were asked to share who we were. And most people use kind of those typical labels of I'm a mom or I'm a teacher.

I am a spouse, I'm a daughter, this is my age. And my poem for the retreat that I did, I wrote almost like contradictions of myself, where I wrote that, like, sometimes I'm really grounded and sometimes I'm really like flighty, dreamy and flaky. And the end line was, I'm full of contradictions, but ultimately it's all me. And so even to consider your job, your career, your work, that can be, and that's what I really feel I want to offer and show and model and encourage for people, is that it can be you, that you can live in a way that I say sometimes it's play versus work. I get to like play and make an income. It's my instead of saying this is my way of survival or this is my way of making money. It's like I can make a living by being myself, and it's very, very fulfilling. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:05)

Absolutely. You are doing what aligns with your strengths and who you are.

Amanda Baker (05:14)

Yes, yes. And it goes back to when I was a child, I used to dance. So I think at like age three, my mom put me in ballet, and I kept up with dance all through high school. I did a little bit of it in college for fun, but I tried so many different forms of dance, from jazz to tap to hip hop to modern. I went to a magnet middle school for dance, and coming into yoga, you know, like 20, I wasn't that long, like, 10 plus years later, I was like, this is how I can basically use movement in my life now. I'm not a professional dancer, but I have this access to movement that feels like a form of dance in a way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:56)

really does, especially in a more flowy, slightly fast yoga practice. It has that sense of it has something in common with dance. And I'm wondering what you see in common about it, because I know that yoga is so much more than the movement, but the asana practice does have that element to it. So is it the coordination? Is it the focus? Is the balance a part of it?

Amanda Baker (06:02)

Thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:25)

Remembering, all right, if you learned dance, even at a young age, as a toddler or anything like that, you learned how to balance on one leg.

Amanda Baker (06:34)

Yes, yes, so it's probably all of that in some way right, there's still there's balance there's there's strength, there's discipline. Though the first thing that came to mind when you asked that question the similarity Know the choreography as we could say That there's a choreographic aspect to yoga because there's so many different lineages. So there's so many different forms of

You know, like Bikram has these specific postures that you're doing or more of a power vinyasa flow. You're going through, you know, each vinyasa, or you could be doing gentle restorative yoga, where you're using props more, and you're relaxing or holding a posture for longer. And so there's so many different forms of dances as well. So there's that similarity, though we could say there's choreography, and it could be creating a choreographic yoga sequence, and then you have to remember it if I'm teaching it or remember it when you're practising it. While there's also dance, there can be that very free-flowing form. And so the way that I use a lot of the yoga when I'm facilitating is I have aspects of it that are choreographed and planned that are kind of the same each time. And then I have aspects that are very intuitive and more just flowing from one thing to the next that feels very presently attuned, where there's this aspect that is very present, the use of your breath and flowing, like listening to yourself and your body to go from one thing to the next. And I think that's what I love about dance is that it has that free flow.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:20)

Interesting. That surprises me a little bit because some of the classic dance classes that kids will go to, it has a bit of a precise expectation of you do this step this way. And in yoga, there's so much compassion for do what your body can handle. And have you found that there's a bit more freedom in yoga to

Amanda Baker (08:26)

Thank you.

Okay.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:47)

There's less of a pass or fail in yoga because it's not about that.

Amanda Baker (08:51)

Yes, yes. And I think that when we do go into or think about the traditional kind of dance classes, there's a lot of precision, there's a lot of order, there's a lot of, now I remember for ballet, like perfectionistic qualities. And so I think that's what drew me away from ballet and more into like the hip hop type of dance that I preferred. And so that's telling to me, you know, I go with what I prefer now more than ever. And so that might be also what has drawn me to yoga in terms of it not really being at all pass or fail and specifically my yoga. So I call it therapeutic yoga. So even though I have a training 200 hours in Hatha Raja yoga and then my 300 hour in yoga psychology, I've adapted a lot of it to my own style.

And it's trauma-informed base too, from my trauma-informed trainings, where I really emphasise and repeat the invitation to people to listen to your body, to allow the pose to show up through you, that the yoga does you instead of you doing the yoga. So, however you land in a posture or whatever you decide to modify or to skip or to hold longer.

It's because you're listening to yourself and gaining the benefits that way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:16)

Yes, absolutely. We have more of a freedom to listen to ourselves. It sounds like you've explored hip hop and the more relaxed forms of dance a lot more than I have. So I'm curious about that, but I also want a chance to define some of those yoga styles for those who don't know. So would you like to explain to the listeners what those yoga lineages are, the ones you were describing, and also what's involved in the hip hop that gives it a bit more freedom?

Amanda Baker (10:49)

Yeah, so my training was from Hatha Raja Yoga. So Iyengar lineage, if you follow it all the way back. And there's multiple different lineages that I'm not even too familiar with. But they all stem back to hundreds of years ago in more of the Eastern cultures. And so these different forms of yoga, these different styles, there's all these benefits from it, but they can stem from really the way that you're holding your body, which postures you're engaging in and the pace of it. So like a gentle restorative yoga is really about letting the muscles relax so that you're creating a sense of safety and release in your body, which some people I found, even as I offer some more restorative aspects in yoga at times, is that people really can struggle being in stillness, that the stillness of being on a bolster or a block or a pillow on different parts of your body that's kind of holding you. So a lot of restorative yoga uses props so that the body can get into a state of relaxation, kind of this state between asleep and awake. So that would be one more of the like gentle restorative kind of slower types of yoga. And I know I mentioned Bikram, which I take in Bikram classes, I don't have training in, though I know that that form is in a very hot room. So you're using heat, like 110 degrees, to soften the tissues, to soften the muscles so that your body can open up and become more flexible. And then you engage in a certain number. And honestly, I don't remember the number of poses or postures. But you hold each posture and you do each one twice.

And so if you go to a Bickram class, that's technically the sequence that you're going to have every time. And then there can be more of the traditional vinyasa style classes where you're going through sequences. It's more of a flow from one pose to the next. And I think a lot of studios kind of adapt to their own or create their own version. So that also can depend on the studio and the teacher.

So you can have a hot power yoga class where you're moving really quickly in a hot room. The Hatha Raja yoga is a sequence. It's a flow, but it is more based on a slower kind of variation of

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:31)

Yes. And to translate one other thing really quickly, you mentioned the 110 degrees that it would be in a room in America. I translated that if we are in Celsius, that is about 43 degrees. So it's a slight heat wave. You're basically putting yourself in a heat wave for an hour. I would love to actually unpack. So I've followed a lot of yoga. I've followed

more than 500 practices, but I still am trying to wrap my head around the heated setup. I'm really curious. What do you say that the heated environment does to us and for us?

Amanda Baker (14:17)

my goodness, yes, yes. It's somewhat controversial, to be honest, because I've heard multiple sides. And I commend you for all the different practices you have undertaken and followed. So there might be even lineages or formats of yoga that you can share for the listeners, too, that I didn't touch on. Though when it comes to heat, so if I took it from my lens, so I do within the therapeutic work, whether it's integration of yoga or even some talk therapy. I use a lot of therapeutic language in my classes when I do it in a group size and even one-on-one. But I would take the heat aspect from a nervous system regulation lens. So I did share how heat helps the muscles to soften and to relax and kind of detox. So that's, think, one, maybe more.

Scientific or medical view of it or in a physiological view for your body some people I think look at it as a form of like exercise where they're activating the cardiovascular system and Believe well if i'm in this hot room that i'm going to sweat it out and i'm going to lose more weight So there's there's that view my take if I were to use heat in my classes, which I don't

But if I were to take it from this lens of nervous system regulation, because I say this a lot, even without heat, is that in yoga, you're getting into postures, positions, stretches, or even stillness that can be uncomfortable. And then that discomfort can sometimes feel threatening to your nervous system and activate your stress response, where your stress response is going into fight, flight, or freeze. And so when that's activated, and you're doing it through a place of choice, I'm choosing to be here in this therapeutic yoga session or class, that then you have that sense of awareness of, okay, my heart rate's beating really fast. I'm tensing my muscles. This heat is so uncomfortable. May I use my breath to send the signal to my body and to my nervous system that I'm safe, that I'm okay, that you can enhance your tolerance for that discomfort?

Being in the heat might be not your preference, but if we use that as a symbolism for life, there's things in life that happen that are not your preference. But if we can be, consciously choose situations like that to practice in, of let me enhance my tolerance for this, let me access some comfort in this discomfort, the next time might not be so threatening, so uncomfortable.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:50)

Thank you.

Amanda Baker (17:05)

You might not have that opinion and judgment of like, hate this, this is awful. So that can happen, I think, with heat, but that's, since I don't use the heated rooms for my classes, that's what I promote in being in an uncomfortable state while in some part of the yoga practice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:15)

Thank

Yes, there are so many ways to find your level of discomfort. And one thing that I really learned from yoga is that you need discomfort, but not pain. If you're an excruciating pain from something that's not okay, but discomfort just pushes us a bit beyond our limits. And I really brought that back into life. I heard that from the teachers. I'm not a yoga teacher, but that phrase and I'm so curious if you agree with that approach to it of stretch your discomfort but not your pain too much. It tells us, okay, we can handle things, but we don't have to handle everything. Do you think so?

Amanda Baker (18:10)

Yes, yes, I agree of listening to the signals and distinguishing what's discomfort and what's pain and you know, sometimes we can confuse ourselves sometimes we're like this is this is pain when really it might be your threshold for your discomfort and so to really get curious about yourself when you're in the moment of something or even right now, you know, I encourage people to

Be curious of what is my level? Where do I draw the line? Do I wanna stretch my discomfort while trusting self that if it's pain, I'm gonna ease off or I'm going to adjust because we get those signals from our body, from our sensations, even sometimes from emotions that so that you don't harm yourself, so that you don't injure yourself. And anytime that you have that signal and you're listening to it, that just shows you where you're ready in that moment, like, okay, this is painful today, I'm going to ease off because that's all I was ready for today. Though maybe tomorrow that same posture might not be painful, and it might just be the discomfort. And it might show that you listened, but now you're ready for a little more. And really accepting where you are in the moment.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:32)

Yes, it's so true. We can all identify in any area of life how one day something could be fun and the next day maybe you could be a bit extra tired or, or I don't know, maybe something just aches for no reason or maybe you had sometimes I had sat on a train for three hours and then my body feels different than the day when I didn't. Do you think that anything will just shape us on any different day?

Amanda Baker (20:03)

Yeah, it's interesting because I will even say, you know, we're a new person every day. And I think that's really the value of yoga and of mindfulness and consciousness, is that what I believe, and this is more my belief, what stays the same is that core of who you are. And that could be your essence, your energy, your soul, your spirit, whatever you use to kind of really get a sense of self versus that personality, that we use these words, because I think in our human experience, we have to communicate and have language for an identity, though there's also like an emotional, like energetic felt sense of self that I think does just exist at the core of you. And then you have all of these influencing things, influential things that are external that you're constantly receiving input from sensory stimulation that affects how you're going to show up moment by moment, day after day. So yeah, one day the three-hour train ride is like, not comfortable, not conducive. And then another time you were in a better state to tolerate it or even be more comfortable in it. And we don't have, I think we tend to get so analytical as to like, why was that okay that day and not the other.

But when we can just honour that one day was different and have that acceptance around it, that I think allows us to soften out of our overthinking mind and to be more present because all we have is right now.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:51)

Yes, that goes back to identity, how we were describing it at the beginning, because just like you can be a bunch of different things at the same time, you are a mom, you are a yoga teacher, you are a therapist. At the same time, although we can be a bunch of things simultaneously, we're also evolving but still ourselves.

Amanda Baker (21:58)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:20)

And that's something I've been so curious about because I'm wondering if you had a version of this. I was a completely different person five years ago, 10 years ago, but I still identify with it. I know that I did these things years ago, but we evolve so much. So it's really fascinating, especially when you reach that age where you have done things a while ago and you're trying to figure out, okay,

Amanda Baker (22:45)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:47)

How much of that past self is still me?

Amanda Baker (22:50)

Yes, yes, and I think the best way for me to really articulate that and the introspection that I have done is, like I said, with dance, right? That was me as a kid.

And that was the one activity that I stuck with. So it wasn't like my mom put me into dance. So then now I like dance because my mom put me in it. She also put me in softball, baseball, tennis, and art classes. And she really wanted me to have these extracurriculars. And I was also a kid that really just wanted to like play at home. And I just wanted to not have structure and to do my own thing, though I stuck with dance. Another thing that I stuck with was poetry. So I naturally started to write poetry at a young age, six or seven. And I stopped during my college years. So from like age 18 up until about 30. And it was the yoga teacher training that got me back into writing, because we were told or asked to write every day, and it came out through poetry. So I think like the essence and core of me is like movement, body free flow, creative feeling inspired and putting my emotions into metaphor and words and like being very ⁓ expressive and deep in my feelings and intuitive. And so I use those as like traits to describe me, that I think we are more trait-based than we are label and identity-based. And so myself as a therapist, I really I look back and I'm like I knew I wanted to be a therapist because I love the study of people and I love connecting I love asking questions having conversations And so when I came into being a therapist, you were told this is how you show up as a professional. You need to dress maybe a certain way or you need to see clients. Yeah, go ahead

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:51)

Right. Let's look at that for a second because you,

you are in such a mindful, ⁓ serene profession now. However, being a therapist, did people tell you to dress corporate? Were they telling you to speak very impersonally? What was it? And I'm so fascinated by this because, because

I think that so many of us were taught a sort of conforming style for various professions that we needed to then break free from or spread our wings from.

Amanda Baker (25:31)

Yes, yes. And that is something I think I started to question the longer that I was in the field because I think originally I thought it was the place I was working at that made it feel so rigid of here are the policies you needed to use certain therapeutic models and interventions. So cognitive behavioral therapy was very popular. It was the evidence-based model. So

That was the model to use with clients and to document. And so, yes, it was also in my training, here's how you ask these questions and the ethics around self-disclosure and things that you could and couldn't do. And that was, think, too, based on some of the supervisors of maybe sharing their style in hopes that that would support the training.

but it helped me, one, to learn what I don't want to do so that I could come into what I do want to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:35)

that brought up so many questions.

It sounds like you're saying that they were guiding how you should even ask questions to clients. But also what I'm sensing is that these people were trying to, now I'm just joining dots here, but it sounds like these people clearly saw themselves as experts that were guiding you. And perhaps they were trying to let some of what they created

live on through your work.

Amanda Baker (27:08)

Yes, and I don't necessarily view that as a negative thing because I think I probably would do the same thing if I had someone I was supervising that I would share like this is what this is what works for me and that particular piece in terms of the way of asking questions that wasn't as rigid and that was kind of more recommendation and then like you said maybe wanting

their style to also live through the people that they were supervising and supporting. Whereas from more of like the upper management approach was here's the interventions that you have to use and these interventions have kind of these requirements or here's the model of therapy you need to use and these are the requirements and a lot of that stemmed from funding. Like we're getting funding for you to use this therapeutic model.

So a lot of it, unfortunately, is that kind of corporate ⁓ money ⁓ focused way, which I get in order to sustain itself, they need the funding, but it just didn't align with me in the way that felt conducive for me to practice because I noticed tension in my body. I noticed headaches I was getting. I noticed feeling tired and fatigued and more irritable and cynical, which are the signs of burnout.

But I view the signs of burnout as an indicator of maybe working somewhere or over and over again, that's just not aligned with you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:39)

Yes, the funding, I would say versions of that could be happening in multiple countries where funding is allocated for very specific forms of therapy. And again, I am getting into the habit now of including the disclaimer, everybody should go to their doctors and therapists and do what feels right. However, what I've seen over here, for example, is

Talk therapy is sort of the standard and there are other forms of therapy like art therapy, music therapy, and very, very legitimate. And you have your yoga therapy and that could do so much because yoga gets people transcending beyond the words, be it

thoughts or talking, you transcend beyond the words to just say, okay, what happens if I actually switch off from all that dialogue for a moment? What if I just free myself from it? So have you seen that there's a bit of control in whatever spaces are doing this to basically sway everybody towards particular forms of therapy by directing funding in those directions?

Amanda Baker (30:08)

Yeah, it's sad to me that there's so many forms of healing or transformation, well-being that support reduction of mental health symptoms or support enhancing your mental health that are just not covered either by our insurance or are not approved by an accredited.

organizations. like even yoga is not considered an approved accredited form of therapy. So it's not something that I can use towards my continuing education credits when I when I get trained and I have to pay for separate ones that are approved so I can renew my license. And if that to me feels like like a form of control or just a box that I have to stay in in order to maintain my license and we know that

License is what gets paid more or what some people consider as being qualified for a job and I have questioned You know if I didn't have this license am I still a therapist? Am I still can I still be doing the same thing for people but it's maybe just a different word? While I understand that Having having the license like I said does maybe support more of my income or my qualifications

or just what I thought was the path that I've now found more of this like embedded kind of integrative path of combining these body-based practices that are beyond the traditional. Cause the traditional form of therapy here in the U S as well is, that talk therapy. I think we're growing where some of there's newer models, which is great. I'm supportive of and excited about.

And talk therapy might be for some people and might be very successful. So I know I'm not going to be the practitioner for everyone. While I do genuinely believe that we are more than just our thoughts in our brain and what we talk about, that our other senses, we're sensory beings that perceive through so many ways, through what we see, what we touch, what we smell, what we taste, what we hear, what we sense inside of ourselves.

as really valuable information to take in and consider in your overall living.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:30)

Yes, and it can go both ways. are not, we are not turning down talk therapy entirely. I wanted to emphasize that so much, but it only goes so far for some people. It really helps sometimes if something has happened. And actually you can probably explain this more than I can. Sometimes if something severe has happened, then

Amanda Baker (32:43)

Thank

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:56)

It can either help initially to talk about it, process, understand, make sure we're keeping a sensible perspective on things and not just living in hopes or, or fears, things like that. But there's a point where you have the risk of just reliving things and replaying things and

Amanda Baker (33:12)

Thank you.

and

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:21)

I think that can almost be just re-traumatizing to make that happen. Again, you're the therapist, I'm not, but I think there's a point where if we are talking through this happened, this happened, this happened, and just describing what happened, then we're just putting ourselves through something. And there's something about the other forms of therapies, even using music as a therapy and

Amanda Baker (33:48)

Thank

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:50)

Or as a therapeutic activity, I think that even aligns with yoga. Yoga has sound in some ways and some things align with that. even music, there's a way, I wonder if you can explain this. When you're practicing music, even if you're not trying to be good at it, it's like the conscious just switches off a bit and you're just on autopilot. Do you think so?

Amanda Baker (33:58)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so I would maybe use a different word than autopilot. I use the word like flow state or sometimes people will say like your genius zone. think that's like an athlete when athletes are like performing really well in a game, right? They'll say that they're not really thinking they're flowing or they're just being. They're being in the moment and.

Everything aligns like their skill set their talent there things that they've practiced to get there You know for the pitcher to throw a hundred like strikes in a row or something wild like that and the same I think with with music that even if you're not trying to Do it with precision or perfection or anything? It's just you just are playing the beat and you start to get so I would say connected and There's ⁓ there's a trauma model that I learned or was trained in early on

And it was a trauma informed model where you work with the person to get to the point where they can write out their trauma. was called a trauma narrative. And then you share it with someone. And that was considered evidence-based. The research showed that people had significant improvements in their trauma symptoms. Now, when trauma is really anything that anyone perceives as threatening, powerless, hopeless, and helpless.

Very very scary, right? So one person could get in a car accident and not be traumatized and then someone else could get in that same sort of ⁓ car accident and have those trauma based symptoms and so in this model it was you would write out what happened what you remember and there was a lot more to it but over the course of time then you would eventually share it with someone and my guess what I wonder because I found like you said that often repeating it over and over

Wasn't really necessarily effective and sometimes there were people that just were reliving it ⁓ And then there was also people that didn't have the memory like we have these protective mechanisms where you black out what happens So then what about those people that don't even have it to share and is it really? effective to help the person remember or Can we remember through our body?

and less than just what we have in memory through our thoughts and what we can write down or speak in words. So I think that's where some of these other modalities can be supportive in enhancing one's ability to be with the trauma symptoms as opposed to the trauma memory. The symptoms are what present, the act is not, hopefully not reoccurring.

So when we're working with a sense of hypervigilance, like I'm on edge all the time, I'm anxious. That's what we can work with in a yoga practice. That's what we can work with with some of these holistic or mindfulness approaches along with talking. So I still use a lot of talking in the therapy that I do. And one last thing with that, that I think might...

be related to why that trauma model was so effective was less about the repeating of the narrative and the memory of the trauma and more about the effectiveness of who you're sharing it with because they had to pick someone to share this with and it needed to be somebody safe. It needed to be someone that would hopefully have compassion and empathy and care. And I think it's that level of connection and vulnerability to share.

something and have that level of response and attunement, that was probably more.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:03)

Yes, you definitely need people who you can actually trust to share anything. And this is so fascinating because I didn't know exactly which angle all of this would take, but I'm so keen to talk about things that are not an extreme trauma, but they have a deep impact on us. And

Amanda Baker (38:29)

Thank ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:31)

the examples that I'm going to call them hypothetical.

Amanda Baker (38:34)

Sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:37)

The

hypothetical examples that come to me are these days, things like love bombing and ghosting. And if women are getting out there and worse things happen than those as well, I'm curious with things like that, or even if someone is feeling bullied in the workplace, anything like that. And it's not, I got mugged. It's not the extreme trauma. Do you think sometimes people can have

slightly traumatized responses to some things or people need to process and find their own suitable therapy after things that are halfway towards, you know, they're having an impact even though it's not your classic stereotypical trauma.

Amanda Baker (39:24)

Yeah, yeah, I think those things can be very, very, very traumatizing for some. And some of it, like in the present state of maybe being ghosted by someone with dating, that might be magnified because maybe you had some traumatic experiences or what we call like attachment trauma or developmental trauma that we don't consider the big T traumas, right? So the big T's are more the physical abuse, the sexual abuse being held at gunpoint.

robbed. But if you grew up in a home where there was maybe these buzzwords like narcissistic parent or emotionally unavailable parents, neglectful, and that impacted your nervous system state and how you interact with people, especially romantic relationships, but it could also be friendships, right? It might lead one to be dysregulated or insecure in self that then these things later in life

Just activate someone's inconsistent responses to you or the ghosting or the bullying can also be information of something deeper that hasn't fully been addressed or processed that you can do through talk therapy. While I find it's more effective to utilize the somatic body based ⁓ approaches to heal.

that or to help understand oneself and then come into more of a state of security and like coping. I don't even want to say coping, like management of those instances, because even if you have a secure sense of self and someone is like hot cold with you, someone ghosts you or is just inconsistent, that's going to affect even I think the most secure person.

and still might require support in moving through that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:26)

Okay, so it will help to go to the semantic practices. We haven't used the word semantic a lot. So I'd love to unpack that. What a semantic practice to you.

Amanda Baker (41:39)

Yeah, so somatic if you break it down like soma means body so body-based approaches and I think there are specific somatic Trainings that people are receiving to do the somatic work. So I i'll disclaimer for myself I'm not really i'm not trained in any of those that have been like patented and copyrighted though, I use that word somatic because Yoga is a body

based approach that I've applied to therapy. So I sometimes will say somatic because it's getting attuned to your body through the therapeutic approach.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:23)

So is somatic basically a practice that you're doing through your body? Okay. So that's simple. So it can be beyond those trademarked things. And actually it's really crucial to highlight to those who really are unfamiliar with yoga, the basic breath work. I have done it once or twice on this podcast.

Amanda Baker (42:31)

Yes!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:51)

already, but for those who are listening to this conversation, the breathing. think, look, occasionally you'll get some individuals who think that yoga is being physically flexible. So let's break that myth and go back to the breath for a moment. And especially as a therapist, what can you tell people about the breath?

Amanda Baker (43:12)

yes, I love that. I'm so glad because sometimes I even get caught up in yoga of the physical pastures and there's so much to it for sure in terms of meditation and ⁓ there's even, that's a part of it as well Ayurveda, that with the food that you put in your body, ⁓ the energy, the different forms of that. so breath is absolutely just another.

facet or aspect of of yoga and so I'll say no yoga is the practice of being present moment by moment so continually bringing yourself back to the present moment and The breath is a really powerful way to get there because we can bring attention to our breath and we often breathe we don't pay attention to our breath, but we're just going about living and We sometimes breathe very shallow. We sometimes breathe very

We're not using our full capacity of the space that we have inside when we breathe so the breath work practices are a way to slow down holding a longer ⁓ Inhale and exhale like counting through it having a pause ⁓ That I think expands like I go back to your tolerance for

living your tolerance for our human experience. mean, the breath is what keeps us alive and it is a free tool. is a free inner resource that you have in response to an inner situation and an outer situation that if you can pause and breathe you over time will be less reactive and you'll have moments to then make a better decision.

or to listen to yourself, it opens up so much. It's really powerful.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:10)

It really does. Anyone can Google Pranayama. There must be plenty of videos on YouTube to demonstrate that more. Along with slowing down our reactions. And personally, I found that I'm still a flawed human and things still push my buttons every so often. But when we get back into practice, we can bring ourselves back. The other thing that to me, the breath does is

It helps us to find our voice more. I learned to breathe from the diaphragm and let me know if this is how you do your pranayama or anything like that. Breathing from the diaphragm instead of the chest so you're not feeling constricted. then breathing slowly, getting more air in. Feeling calm, we can talk more calmly to people and also we can get our voice out more.

Whether you are talking in a podcast like this, whether you are talking in a meeting with a client, whatever it might be, the breathing is going to help how we interact with the world.

Amanda Baker (46:12)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes, so much. It's a part of your full experience and I believe too that connection between your mind and body, like the breath kind of allows you to bring that attention down and then up and then through. And so the mind and body being unified as one through the connection of your breath in the external and internal.

And yes, a lot of the pranayama or breath work practices were through bringing the breath down into the diaphragm as opposed to the chest. And also like playing around, because there's so many different forms of pushing your belly out. As you breathe in, you're expanding the belly out and then pulling it in to push the air out of the mouth. And so really being conscious of the way that your stomach is moving.

as you're doing that. And then you can play around with that and even practice when I breathe in, can I pull my belly button in? And that's different. So it's like you're breathing in, but the belly is pulling in instead. And then you're breathing out and you're releasing and really letting go anything that you're holding on in the stomach.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:37)

Yes. The breath is a great way to lean towards the end of the conversation a bit because the breath is number one. It is the beginning. If you're not breathing, then you won't cope so well in life and the breath, it will make everything steady. And I'm even finding that in the podcast or anywhere else, if someone is very steady,

Or if we're both very steady and taking a breath, then it's a lot more easy to think clearly and just have the right energy to sound woof for a moment. Because sometimes we can get really heightened. Maybe it's excitement, maybe it's overwhelmed, but there's this sort of excited energy where, okay, everybody, let's do this. And it's very, if you remember Crusty the Clown, hey, hey kids, it's...

very, very hyped and you can, it just feels very wound up. And I can even see in your eyes, gosh, that excitement. You see that. And I wanted to show people the opposite of what we should be aiming for because when we take a breath and chill out, I think that we have to prioritize that to find more success in anything that we are doing. We have to find the

in the chaos.

Amanda Baker (49:06)

Yes, it's truly both. I really feel that that's what our conversation has been, right? Like the value of talk therapy and the value of some of these other practices and the body or music and the sensory types of approaches, the same, right? The value of that excitement and high energy and the value of the slowing down, the pausing and the rap.

And I myself used to practice like very fast-paced yoga and I really stayed away from the more gentle restorative and now I love the gentle restorative. It's like there's a saying, know, the medicine of deep rest because we're in such a high-pace, fast-pace, I think, world and so stressed out a lot that we need these practices to reground and to coexist with both extremes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:03)

Okay, that's a lesson. was thinking stay away from the hype, but it's more that you need both. You need both.

Amanda Baker (50:10)

Yeah, the rest will

feel so the rest won't feel as good, right? And that and that's what I say even from from therapy when people come in and they're very depressed, and I'm like, and they they want the cure, they want the fix. And I and I tell them up front, I am not here to fix you, we're going to find the wisdom of your depression, what what what the root is, we're not here to just give you the coping strategies to bandaid it, we're really going to get deep into how this developed what it's about.

And also that as far as you go down is as high as you can go up. And that promotes joy, that your sadness or even the deeper depression sometimes is necessary for you to really appreciate when you feel that joy and to help harmonize to find that middle space at times. know, the be on the seesaw. We're not gonna be centered all the time either.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:05)

Absolutely. Would you like to wind up with or conclude with three points of focus? Everybody can do three things we can do to to basically look after ourselves.

Amanda Baker (51:22)

Yes, and I think we touched on the first one that I'm gonna say is the breath. And that's something whenever a podcast host or an interview that I'm doing, they've asked or like, if people are really struggling or they want one go to, and I say, it's the breath. for some that doesn't feel like enough, for some that is actually hard to come to, though it's simple. It's simple because you have it and...

when you're willing to practice it. So the first time you do it might not feel much, but when you keep up with it, you'll look back and you'll be like, wow, I really have less reactivity or I really am more connected with myself. So that's one. The second is to really reflect back on what you loved doing as a kid and really choose and engage in things that you love. So if it was being out in nature, go back out in nature. If it was poetry or dance like me,

go back to those things, or if it was creating and designing in your room, take the time to bring those childlike interests back into your life. So that's number two, and then number three, and this might take some more time for people, and we didn't touch a lot on it today, but maybe we can come back to another conversation, is this access of your intuition.

and really listening to yourself. So like I said, I had the signals in my earlier years of work where these places that I was working just did not align. And that came through like burnout, that came through listening to the body over time. And really, I think that was also like gut instinct that take the time to really listen to your intuition.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:54)

Thank

Amanda, thank you for all the wisdom.

Amanda Baker (53:10)

You're welcome. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:15)

Thanks for being on the show.