Podcast Episode: Jessica Gammell-Bennett

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Jessica Gamble-Bennett, welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (00:00)

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Melanie. I'm so glad to be here. I appreciate the invite.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:10)

Absolutely. It's amazing to see your professional and personal background and what you're sharing with the world. You are a psychotherapist and life coach, but you also have a lot of personal journeys that you have overcome and very publicly shared, such as struggling as a mom, chronic fatigue and overcoming cancer. So with all of these stories, I'll let you tell the story.

What was your journey?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (00:42)

Yeah, so I am a mom and a step-mama for boys. ⁓ Three of them, well, all of them are neurodivergent. Three of them are on the autism spectrum. Two of them are profoundly gifted. Two of them have a type of autism known as PDA, pathological demand avoidance. I think it's a terrible title. I prefer a persistent drive for autonomy.

And that experience is what drove me into becoming a family life coach and a psychotherapist because I realised that the systems that we have in place do not work for these children. A lot of

Autism treatment is what's called ABA or Applied Behaviour Analysis, and for children with PDA, yeah, Applied Behaviour Analysis is like, it's basically training ⁓ with consistent rewards and prompts.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:36)

What is that?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (01:51)

It's training children on social cues and basically being able to sort of fit in with the customs and mores of society. And what we find with PDA children is that when you try and gain compliance from them.

They will go into fight or flight. Their sympathetic nervous system will get triggered. Their threat response will get triggered. And you will see them either have an epic tantrum, and it can be pretty epic. It can involve throwing things. It can involve screaming. can just a rage like you've never seen. It can also involve just completely shutting down.

So we know the nervous system, the sympathetic nervous system, this is, takes us back to, let's say, in ancient times, we were being chased by a tiger. Okay. Our body is going to do one of four things, or actually, I'll use an even better example. Let's say our village is attacked by another, by invaders. This is a better example. Our body is going to, we're going to do one of four things. We're going to fight. We're going to stand and fight. We're going to take flight, right?

Okay, we're going to freeze, play dead basically, or we're going to fawn. We're going to make nice with the invaders so they don't kill us. Okay?

Our body is still designed like this. Our nervous system is still designed like this. So the people pleasers, those are the fawners. The people who are sort of avoidant and sort of run, okay, from a conflict, those are the runners. People who get triggered and have tantrums and rages, those are the fighters. You don't really have control over which one you do.

So with kids who have PDA, you'll see them, first of all, they'll have issues when they're very young, going to like preschool, for example. Okay. These are the kiddos that you'll see screaming in front of the school because they don't want to go in the school. And what are people, all the people around the kid, trying to do? They're trying to gain compliance from him. They're not understanding that his or her threat response has been activated.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:34)

We don't.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (03:58)

So what we know about these kiddos and what the research is starting to show us is that they are genetically predisposed to have higher cortisol levels. Cortisol is a stress hormone. So what happens is they're already up here with their stress hormone, right? And then a demand is made of them, and then their sympathetic nervous system gets triggered like this. Now, children who have trauma can do this too.

So I had this child that sort of was a preschool dropout. At one point, he wouldn't even leave the house. I had to shut down my holistic practice, become a stay-at-home mom, and figure out how to help this child. I did the research and I realised that he had high cortisol levels. I started giving him magnesium, and it was a game-changer. So suddenly, his debilitating anxiety was much better. He wasn't tantruming far as much as he was in the beginning when he was three years old. And over time, I learned how to make demands of him, for example, using a lot of if-then strategies. You can have your TV time after your room is clean, you know, these kind of things.

And in my clinical practice now as a psychotherapist, I work in community-based family health as well. I work with a lot of these children, and I have a theory, and this might sound crazy, but I think this is the next step of our evolution. I think these children have a persistent drive for autonomy because this is like how the species is going to evolve.

So if we want systems that give people the personal freedom that they need to serve, be of service to the world in the way that they want to, and not always have to be about compliance. We're gonna have to have humans walking around on this earth who are not going to be so easily compliant. And once I started to see it through that framework, everything changed. Everything changed for me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:20)

You're saying that the systems need to adapt to the way kids are instead of, so it's too hard to change kids to fit the mould of a system that really developed decades ago and hasn't changed that much. Do you think so?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (06:37)

Absolutely.

Yeah, I think we have a lot of compliance-based systems. I was a high school teacher too, so I have experience with this. And I found that I got the best results when I did not expect compliance. I built relationships, I built connection, I gave choices. I gave that freedom for people to be their authentic self, right? And students appreciated it, you know?

These kids are not easy to raise, I will tell you that. So if people listening to your podcast recognise this, my heart is with you. It will, go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:18)

Thank you so much.

No, I just want to thank you so much for saying that for a second. think that families need that because we are sometimes surrounded by professionals who are wondering how a child can fit the mould, or at least there are some people who will assume the parents should just do this and do that and then everything will be okay. But you're acknowledging it's a struggle. It simply will be.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (07:46)

Right.

It simply will be. The thing is, so my child has in the States, I don't know, you probably have this in Australia, but we have IEPs, individualised education programs. So my 10-year-old has one of those, and he has gifted services as well. So he gets social-emotional help, and he gets the gifted services. You know, there's a whole lot of extra help that he's getting, but he's thriving now. And the thing that I had to realise was I wasn't going to make him fit the mould.

I had to go to the school and get the school to fit him. And it's a public school. But he, you know, the special education team at his school was willing to work with me. They respected my background, my credentials, that I was his mother, and I knew him best. And they let me be a part of creating that education plan with them collaboratively. The child is thriving. So I think we need to really not be afraid to challenge systems, especially for our children, on behalf

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:55)

We need to.

I think this is one of the most transformational recordings that I've done, to be honest with you. I am wondering, I can assume the school listened to you even more because you also have the professional background. And I'm wondering what advice do you have to parents, where some people out there will not, they won't

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (08:58)

Yeah.

Yay!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:25)

the same weight or credibility to a parent who doesn't have the mainstream qualifications. This came from very intelligent backgrounds in other areas, other specialties, and we might just not have that particular specialty. So, what can parents do to really be heard? Do they need to find the right expert to back them up? Do they need to find some online resources to back up what they're saying? What can they do?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (09:57)

Absolutely. It's interesting, like in the UK, they have schools for PDA children. So they're much more advanced than we are in the States. There's an organisation in the States called PDA North America. That's a great resource because what parents can do is they can basically bring resources from that website. They're spearheading the effort to get it recognised in the States. Into the school. And what they need to know is if you're in the states, okay, federal law mandates that once a parent contacts a principal and requests an evaluation for an individualised education plan, they have 90 days to comply with that evaluation. 90 days. They have to get it done. Those are your legal rights. And if you do not get compliance from the principal, on getting an evaluation for your child, you need to go to the school board. And if that doesn't work, then you need to go to the media, whatever. But everyone knows in the States that this is a federal law, and they're mandated to do it. So I have never had a parent not be able to find somebody who would finally say, Yeah, we need to do the evaluation on this child.

The thing about PDA kids is they are so smart usually that they will not appear to have autism. Like they won't have the red flags, you know? And so that's the greatest challenge. I had to take my son to a specialist in Massachusetts and I live in North Carolina. So that's quite a trip. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:27)

Right.

How far away is that? Just for context.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (11:38)

And it's a plane ride. Yeah. It's so it's like the southern United States to the northern United States. Yeah. I to take them all the way to Boston. Yeah. Yeah. It's a trip. So what I would say is lean on the regulations, lean on the law, lean on your rights. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:40)

It's trip. ⁓

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (11:59)

And you have to just keep pushing. You have to keep pushing. Get your resources. Look up pathological demand avoidance. Try and find a therapist that will help you. Try and find a therapist. If you say you have Medicaid, which in this country is like, you know, what low-income families have. A lot of my clients and community-based family services have Medicaid. ⁓

If you have Medicaid, then you can get a lot of organisations to help you. You can get free clinical therapy. There are resources for you, and you can get care managers to help you. So there are advocates, social workers. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, so I'm a therapist, but what I studied was clinical social work.

Social workers are probably your best bet ⁓ because they're so resource-rich. Social workers are trained to be really rich in resources and finding new resources. So if you're in the States, look for somebody who is an LCSW. Licensed clinical mental health counsellors are also excellent because they're very holistic in their training. They're going to want to look at exercise, mindfulness, like nutrition, those lifestyle elements as well. Nutrition is super important for these kids.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:21)

It really is. Would you say that wherever someone is in any country, people with those sorts of specialties are going to look at the whole picture and check what in the environment needs to change, instead of just putting it all on the child or the individual to change?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (13:39)

And the thing is, these children who are struggling are the canaries in the coal mine.

Right? So, you remember the canary in the coal mine, the miners would bring the canary down in the cage. And if the canary died, then the air was toxic. Okay? So children who are people who are canaries in a coal mine are just showing you what's wrong with the system. They're just more sensitive. And that sensitivity is actually a beautiful thing because it's showing us where we need to change. So if a child is struggling in a system, it's not the child, it's the system that needs to change.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:15)

need to ask, have you ever seen someone feeling a bit scared of becoming a whistleblower or standing up to people in authority who are maybe trying to cover their backs, maybe just don't want to change, don't want to admit they don't know everything? Have you seen people facing those sorts of challenges, and how do you navigate that?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (14:40)

Yeah, yeah, I have. Yes, I absolutely have. And the thing is, you know, unfortunately, the more income you have, the more power you have, we all know that, okay? And that's why we need to find advocates. So if you feel that you don't have the power to stand up against someone who's just not listening to you, say, I don't know, a principal, and I'm very pro, you know, public education. I was a public high school teacher, so I'm not, I'm not.

know, throwing shade at educators at all. I love educators. I was an educator. But if it's a, but I've also been on the side of being a parent, right? And I've been very blessed in my journey with my child in the public school system, but I have seen some of my clients and community-based that have not been so blessed. And I would say that's when you have to find an advocate for you. There are organisations that will help and assist parents who have special needs children whose rights are not being respected. And so reach out to them, ⁓ find those resources, call your local department. People are scared of social services because they're the baby snatchers, whatever, but actually...

Most people that work in these professions do genuinely want to help, you know, and so they will have resources, they will know about organisations that you can contact and connect to to get help with advocacy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:13)

If someone wants to become an advocate, is that something that mainly the medical people should be becoming or have you seen anyone with lived experience exploring some sort of way to advocate for others after they've seen, okay, this is how the system works. I wanted to share what I learned about navigating the system, share that with more people and help for more.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (16:18)

Nice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:41)

problems to be solved. Have you seen that happening?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (16:44)

Absolutely. So the most powerful and the largest local organisations that I've noticed are parents who have special needs children whose children's needs have not been attended to properly. And they've had to become advocates, and they kind of create these organisations on Facebook and in person, where they band together to do the research. ⁓ And you know they're usually like Facebook groups or so you know groups on social media where one mom can post in the group and say, hey, this is what happened today, help. And then all the other moms will jump in and be like, Okay, this is what you need to do. This is who you need to call. ⁓ And that's going to be your best way. So knowledge is power, numbers are power, right? And I think that's how we're going to start to see a seed change. The most powerful people are parents, especially mothers. Those are the people who are going to make these changes.

And when we support each other, because in the culture there's a lot of, I think, moms are pitted against each other, whether it's over working mom versus stay-at-home mom, breastfeeding versus formula, all the things, right? And I think if we can cut through that and not allow ourselves to be pitted against each other and just support each other and connect through our common humanity, which is our love for our children and our wanting the best for our children. I think that's where our power comes from, and we can create these groups. If you can't find a group, create it because there's somebody else out there who wants to be part of that group and who feels like they're alone and they need to know that they're not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:30)

feel so positively overwhelmed by that because you're not the first one to recently tell me, reach out to the other people in similar situations. So, what I saw in what you were saying was that we need to unite despite our differences. And so that could go beyond mothers, but I wanted to add another category to that, to what you said, because

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (18:40)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:57)

As hearing from people on both ends of the political spectrum who just want everybody to be okay. And I'm very concerned at the moment that there are some people who need a bit of reassurance. And if you do genuinely show them, look, these, some people are from different political groups or social groups, but they're just as concerned about precisely the same thing about everybody being okay. Do you agree that?

We all need to just get over our differences to help.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (19:30)

So it's so funny that you asked me this question because I posted a video to my Instagram this evening, and it was about this moment, and I, you know, wanted to just say what's happening in the consciousness. The thing is the way that you lose power is to focus on differences and to allow yourself to be polarised. Right? It's their fault, right? Because their beliefs are different than mine. The way that you gain power is to connect to people, especially when they have different beliefs and join together.

on what you share. So, going back to parenting, mothers, right? On all sides of the political spectrum. But it's also realising that this is how we are disempowered, by arguing over our differences. Absolutely, of course it is. Yeah. I mean, think about Hunger Games, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:35)

Do you think that's deliberate?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (20:45)

So why was Katniss the leader of a resistance movement? Because she didn't describe to the game.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:57)

I didn't watch The Hunger Games. know that I should have. So I'm living under a rock. I think I should have seen it. But for those who didn't watch the show, I maybe translate that a little bit more for a second.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (20:57)

Right?

That's okay.

Yeah.

So the Hunger Games, the premise of it was basically you had wealthy people who lived in the capital, okay, and they were gorging themselves on food. And then you had really, really, really poor people who lived in the districts, I think it was called. It's been a while. And the idea was they would pick somebody from each district, and they would make them play the Hunger Games. They would, you'll probably hear, violent volunteers tribute, right? ⁓ And they would pit them against each other.

Okay, for sport. And the reason was because the people in the capital knew that as long as the people in the districts were fighting each other, they wouldn't be able to stand up and rise up against the people who are in control. So it's the same thing if you're fighting other people based on your beliefs, you're not coming together with them to change things and to make things better. You're too busy spending your energy fighting.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:11)

Yeah. I think that's crucial to understand right now. And I can be vague in sharing that months ago I, I saw someone who's becoming just over here, very obsessed with the American politics and increasingly anxious, scared, and constantly wondering who around me, as in who around here will be

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (22:28)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:40)

not actually as trustworthy as we can assume, who has an intention I don't know about. And it was almost becoming a bit paranoid. And I'm really worried that the current climate is sort of encouraging that, instead of just connecting and chilling out and being a bit human.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (22:49)

Yeah.

So the thing is the way that people have always been controlled is by putting them into fear. And so the opposite of fear is love, you know, is safety, right? And when people allow themselves to fall into fear, they lose their power.

And that's kind of the point of rhetoric and getting people to be divided and fight against each other. It's to keep them in fear, it's to keep them disempowered. So to your point, if your friend was really like worried and becoming, sounds like paranoid, ⁓ they were falling right into the trap, right? And so it's gonna take people deciding not to allow themselves.

to be possessed by fear, basically. I use the word possessed intentionally too, because it is almost like a possession when someone's that afraid. And people will say, we have a reason to be afraid. Sorry. Please.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:04)

because you're not yourself anymore?

Is it sorry for jumping in, as just came to ask, is it because they're basically

not themselves anymore?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (24:17)

Yeah, if you think of it and if you want to use science, we'll use science, okay? So going back to fight, flight, freeze, fawn, yeah? What rhetoric can do is it can activate cortisol, the stress hormone. It can trigger you to go into fight, flight, freeze, or fawn in your sympathetic nervous system.

And then yes, you are no longer in your prefrontal cortex, your logical problem-solving part of your brain that, by the way, also bonds with other humans, okay? And has mirror neurons. This is why babies and mothers, this is how they bond, okay? ⁓ Now you are in your reptilian brain, right?

So you're a caveman brain if you want to call it, okay? You are in the amygdala. And the amygdala is your fight or flight. It's I'm in danger. So if we want to keep people disempowered, we create fear, we keep them in their amygdala.

And yes, they're not even in their right mind. They're not in their right mind. They're not in their prefrontal cortex, which is logical and would question things and also would use its mirror neurons to bond with other humans and problem solve to make things better. This is actually evolutionary, how we survived. It was by being communal people and helping each other.

Yes, we had tribes that attacked each other, but we wouldn't have survived as a species if we didn't also have communities of people that helped each other thrive and survive.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:59)

was so keen to divert a little bit to community to look at your own healing in a moment, but until that, I'm wondering if community or looking for some sort of guidance can also help us see our own blind spots in all of this.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (26:06)

in.

Absolutely. I think everybody should have at least one friend who can call you on your crap. I have a group of girlfriends, and we can be very honest with each other and be like, You're not seeing this. You know, when you said this to me, like it really, it triggered this in me being self-reflective and then being in community with other people who are self-reflective is how you will improve, and you will see your blind spots.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:49)

Awesome. Get someone who's going to be honest.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (26:53)

Yeah, don't just be friends with people who just say, you know, who just validate you no matter what. Because there are times when you shouldn't be validated. There are times you should be challenged.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:07)

Interesting. And so getting back to community now, I can see that through that and other things, you overcame cancer. What sort of cancer did you have? What happened? How long ago was that? I'm really curious.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (27:20)

Yeah, so I had invasive squamous cell carcinoma, so it started on the skin and then it invaded and went into the lymph nodes. ⁓ And it's an I want to tell the whole story because I the community part is really important to me. So my sister Laura and ⁓ I

had very different gifts. I'm what's called clairsentient, so I can feel energy since I was a little girl. I've always been able to walk into a room and tell you who was sad, who was mad, what was going on. My sister was very clairvoyant. She could read auras. mean, she could close her eyes and see. And I could never do that. I would close my eyes and see nothing. I mean, it's just like, OK, my eyes are closed. I see nothing. And so when I founded my healing system in 2020, was right when the pandemic hit. It was interesting.

I would feel a new healing symbol come in, and I would text my sister or call her and say, Hey, I have a new healing symbol coming in. I can't see it. What is it? And she would text me back within five minutes and say, It's this and this. In June, early June of 2023, I felt this healing symbol coming in very strongly. Felt for me, it feels like

energy just coming into my energy field. It's very strong. Like if you had your body against a speaker that was really loud, you know that feeling where like the music is bumping? That's what it feels like to me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:48)

You can feel

The sort of vibration, so to speak, is really good for a speaker. I know that feeling. basically you just, you had a feeling and everybody, whether they believe in this sort of thing or not, sometimes you just have a bit of a suspicion or a gut instinct, some kind of, some kind of wondering.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (28:52)

Yes.

Yes.

Right. And so I knew because I'd been working with my healing sister for quite a while by then, I knew it was a healing symbol coming in. And I texted my sister, I said, What is this? And she wrote back, it's a wrench and a rose. And it was like, okay. said, well, after your, cause her birthday was coming up. Her birthday was June 20th. And this was probably around like June 14th, maybe I'm not sure. And I said, after your birthday, let's figure out what this healing symbol does. And she was like, okay, no problem. And.

She ended up having a fatal heart attack on July 14th before we had a chance to figure out what the symbol was for.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:51)

Fatal heart attack, she died.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (29:53)

She died, was 54 years old, And you can imagine the shock. ⁓ And so we had the funeral and all the things that you do when someone dies. And I wrote the obituary and all that and did a eulogy with my niece. And then I had had these pains.

And I was ignoring them because I was busy. I was in grad school getting my degree. had a baby. No, he was two by this time. ⁓ I had a young child. I had another child. I was busy. And this is another thing is like, if you have a pain, don't ignore it. Go to the doctor. And I just kept ignoring it, kept ignoring it. And finally, it was so painful that I ended up going to the doctor. And on

August 10th, I was diagnosed with invasive squamous cell carcinoma and Sorry, It is right right it started on the skin. Can, exactly, you got it, and then it went into the lymph nodes, so I had what's called a PET scan, and they diagnosed me is stage four, which you know, stage fours

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:51)

basis.

invasive, so it had spread. So what was, so went from the skin to the insides.

that

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (31:15)

is the worst sorry the top level it's the worst correct

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:17)

top level, it's the worst. I'm translating

it for those who don't know the terminology, so we can really follow your end absorbent.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (31:23)

Yep. Yep.

Yeah, no, thank you. I appreciate that. So stage four is the worst. Stage four is game over. So I have a conversation with the oncologist, and he says, they're only going to offer palliative care. And I have a two-year-old, right? And so everything in my being said is wrong. This isn't right. I don't think this is right. And it wasn't denial. It wasn't denial. Like I was like, well, everybody around me was like, well, maybe you're in denial.

And they were gentle about it. You I just lost my sister. And I went to my, to the doctor that I went to to get the diagnosis and I started crying and I said, I know this isn't stage four. And she said, I don't think it is either. And I'm going to explain why. If it was stage four, because I had these lymph nodes under my arms lit up on the PET scan, and the cancer was down low. Okay.

And she said if it was stage four, there would be a trail from the original cancer site up to your lymph nodes, and there's not. And she said, so I'm gonna go to the board and I'm gonna fight for you to have treatment. And I was bawling, of course, you know? And so I go home, and we're waiting on this to happen. In the meantime.

People were sending me roses. Remember the wrench and the rose. My sister said the symbol was a wrench and a rose because my sister had died. They were sending me real, actual roses. They were sending me candles in the shape of a rose. My screensaver on my computer all of a sudden popped up, and it was roses out of nowhere. Like I didn't make it do that. And then my two-year-old started going to his dad's toolbox and bringing me wrenches. And I said, Why are you bringing me these? And he said, It's from Aunt Wawa. She told me to bring it to you.

He said, she tell me bring this you like, you know, in his two-year-old language. And I was like, my God. And so I immediately texted everybody that I loved. And I said, Hey.

I think this is a symbol to heal me. Will you send it to me? And they wrote back and said, yeah, but what does it look like? So I went to my 10-year-old, who's a pretty gifted artist, and I said, Hey, there's a symbol of wrenching the rose. Can you draw it for me? And he said, Yeah, mommy, sure. So he drew it and on the center of the symbol that he drew was an infinity symbol. He said, Mommy, this represents love. He said, it has no beginning and no end. He said, Send this to people who love you. They'll heal you. And I was like, okay. So I took a picture of what he drew and I sent it to all those people. And they started sending me this symbol. And I realised in that moment how many people I had in my life who knew how to send energy healing. I was probably over a hundred.

They were former clients, they were friends, they were relatives, and I could feel the tumour shrinking in real time. And so I went from being in a lot of pain, I mean a lot of pain, to tolerable.

And so the board voted, and my doctor, her name is Dr. Sarah Fox, she's amazing. She persevered, and she got them to agree to treat me. They overturned the stage four diagnosis. They said that the oncologist who had diagnosed me had only been on the job for a couple months. He was brand new, and he basically didn't know how to read a PET scan.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:54)

Gosh.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (34:55)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:57)

I want to fix my light for one second to make sure this is the best it can be. Thanks. So you're saying that it's very legitimate to sometimes question an expert's or a professional's opinion because sometimes they are not as well, they don't know as much as you might assume they know.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (35:18)

Absolutely. And look what I did. I got somebody to advocate for me. I didn't have any power in that system. That was a medical system that I was not a part of. I found a surgeon to fight for me. And she did. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:29)

surgeon who went to the top, bring it to, brought it to the board, so it's not simply, ‘I want another doctor, let's go to the board.’

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (35:34)

back to the board.

Yeah. And she was a mother. She knew I had young children. There we go. There's that connection. You see what I mean? I don't know what her political beliefs are, but we were mothers and she knew I had a two year old and she had to keep me alive. So she fought for me. Yeah. So that's what you have to do. You have to find somebody to fight for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:53)

She saw it was needed. She fought for you. ⁓

And all of these people were sending you all this love and care and it was, it was helping you. You know, a lot of people are not religious. I'm not that religious now, but I saw how some communities will pray for each other, or they end up believing that in some sort of communal, united belief, someone can, in some way, feel better. And it sounds like.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (36:06)

Yeah.

It was helpful to me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:31)

We can't totally explain how, sometimes, when a community comes together over something like this, things improve in some way, but it sounds like even beyond that space, you've seen a version of that happening.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (36:44)

So I can explain it in quantum physics. We have life force energy. So when I got pregnant with my now four-year-old, I felt a swirl of energy coming into my womb. And I knew I was pregnant. I was probably five days pregnant. I mean, way before you could take a pregnancy test. You know, it's like what, two weeks at least. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:02)

You can just know.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (37:04)

Yeah, and I was going like this with my hand to see if I could block the energy. I was like, This is the most amazing thing I've ever experienced. And of course, I wasn't trying to block it, but I was just amazed that I could feel his life force going into my body. I was like, This is incredible. And of course I was pregnant, you know? And so everything alive has life force energy. So the trees have life force energy, the plants have life force energy, we have life force energy. And when we get sick,

our life force energy is diminished, right? Think of it like a battery, okay? What happens when a battery runs low, right? The system that's depending on that battery is not gonna run optimally; it's going to be sick, yeah? And so when people send energy healing, they're sending life force energy from the quantum field. That's why you have to use a symbol.

So I had one person say, I'm sending you all of my energy. And I said, Please don't do that. You'll deplete yourself. Use the symbol. The reason you're using the symbol is because you're pulling the energy out of the quantum field, out of the universe, out of God. Whatever word you want to use is fine. You're not pulling it out of humans. We are channels.

Right? We are channels for life force energy. ⁓ And so when we use a symbol, we're basically just being an energy conductor. We're being a channel for that energy. We're not getting away our own energy. And so that's what people were doing is they were using the energy of that symbol. And so what the wrench was doing was it was attacking the cancer cells. And what the rose was doing was it was restoring the tissues that had been damaged by the cancer cells. And so

That's what I believe, anyway. That's what was happening. So the tumour was shrinking in real time, but it was the love and it was the life force that was coming through that symbol to me from other people using themselves as energy conductors from the quantum field that was shrinking the tumour. And prayer works the same way. Because you think, what are you doing when you pray? You are a channel for divine intervention, right?

And so you're not giving that person your life force away. You're asking God, the universe, whatever name you want to use, right, to intervene on this person's behalf and heal them. That's why it works.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:30)

There's something about the power of the collective, and maybe that's what we're coming back to, just like what you said about education and advocacy. And I'm wondering for those who just haven't wrapped their heads around spirituality or concepts like this, what can you say? And I think this is really crucial because, okay, here's how to put it.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (39:50)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:57)

Sometimes people get sick, and they think they have to be isolated. And there were moments where, in particular situations, maybe in the pandemic or in other things, it made sense. We'll acknowledge that to particular people, it made sense for them in a particular time. However, it sounds like what you're saying is if people are feeling unwell,

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (39:58)

you

Thanks.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:23)

connect with more people and connect with a community, and it's going to make a difference.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (40:30)

Absolutely. Yeah. And the thing is, you don't have to be in person. You know, you can send energy healing from anywhere in the planet. There is a quantum physics. It's part of super string theory, but it's basically the concept of non-locality. So non-locality is if you have a particle on the west coast of the United States and a particle on the east coast of the United States, and you do something to a particle on the west coast, you're to have the equal, the same reaction to the particle on the east

coast. So because we're all connected by quantum energy. So you don't even having positive thoughts about someone can make them better. We're all connected at the quantum level. I mean, spirituality, I think spirituality and science have been separated for too long. It's quantum physics. It really is. I mean, yes, it's spirituality. And I'd say, like one of my friends when I was going through treatment, organised all my other friends.

to make me juice packets. I was juicing while I was going through treatment because my digestive system was a mess from the chemo, and I just really couldn't eat. So, but the juices were a way to get really high-quality nutrients into my body and my bloodstream really quickly, but it was exhausting to juice all day. So my friend organised all my other friends and people in our community to make me these juice packets.

And so they basically would chop the vegetables and everything. So all I had to do was open a Ziploc bag, dump it in my juicer and press the button. And so that's the kind of thing like we need to be doing for people when they're sick. We are not meant to heal in isolation. We're not meant to live in isolation, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:02)

We are social creatures, and you brought it back to food. I think that that's such a crucial thing. And it has been a theme within this podcast. Some people were saying if someone looks overstretched, check if they are hydrating, and you're saying juicing really helped, actually. Actually, very recently I talked on the show with a gut health expert who said that the juices will still have the polyphenols and

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (42:16)

Cool.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:43)

Various things in it, even though you don't have the fibre. So you are absolutely on track. They are still getting something, and it showed people were listening to what you needed. And, and some communities will try to get everybody to bake a tray of meals for someone, things like that. So are you recommending, especially, I'm guessing that would really help people's mental health as well to.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (43:02)

Great.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:10)

It sounds like part of the solution in all sorts of situations is for communities to break bread together. Now I have to stop using these phrases, but do you think part of it is that people really do need to share food together and also positivity?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (43:26)

Absolutely, I think breaking bread is a great term. I use breaking bread a lot, and as a therapist, this came up in a group supervision the other day, about like, can you take food from clients because you're not supposed to, but I reminded them that breaking bread with other people is a wonderful way to bond with them and connect with them. So yes, if they have made a known loaf of something and they want to give you a slice, eat it. Don't turn it down. You know, eat it. Yeah, I think breaking bread with others is a wonderful way to have that communal vibe and to sit down, share a meal. Now you're sharing something, right? You can talk about the food, which is non-polarising, right? And you get to know each other on a human level. Yeah. And I think...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:08)

Yes.

I will add food, sorry.

I was going to say food should not be polarising. You'd be surprised. There are the ones who are anti-carbs, the ones who are not coping with the vegans or whatever. No, ideally, again, get over all our differences and just share whatever you're into, a cup of tea, anything.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (44:20)

No!

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. used to be very, it's interesting, before cancer I was a real health nut and I was like no gluten, no milk, no dairy, rather. Like I was doing smoothies every day. I was really a health nut. And then I got cancer anyway. So now I'll enjoy a chocolate chip cookie. I'll treat myself. Do you see what I mean? And I feel that I'm happier, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:59)

You're living life.

Yeah, actually, my equivalent that I hope aligns with what you're saying is that I am normally such a health nut, but I ended up at a lunch that I was very lucky to squeeze into, and they sent over a big slice of cake, vegan-friendly, but cake and ice cream. I hadn't done that in who knows half a year, something like that. And I knew just be with people and live. Do you think that's what everybody should be doing?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (45:31)

Yeah.

Absolutely, absolutely. Everything in moderation, including moderation, right? So like, I was living like an aesthetic, like a monk. I was only putting really healthy things in my body that could sick anyway. Like now I treat myself, you know, I obviously don't go overboard. I've always taken really good care of having come off of chronic fatigue and all that. I still, you know, I'm pretty healthy. We cook very healthy at home, but I now I treat myself. I give myself that treat because for me I love

This is a very strange thing, and my friend tells me that I'm like a child. But I love getting a hot cup of coffee, taking a chocolate chip cookie, and dunking it in the coffee. And you get a spoon and you fish out the parts that have melted and gone to the bottom. It's amazing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:15)

Okay.

Something. Look, why not? There's a place near here that puts a miniature Oreo next to the coffees. For me, that's on the edge, but I'm speaking your language now.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (46:24)

Ha

⁓ yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:39)

So you do the little treats, but moderation in moderation. You mentioned the fatigue. And I just, you have so many stories, and we might have to add an extra 15, 20 minutes on because there's so much going on here. What happened with the fatigue?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (46:42)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so the chronic fatigue, ⁓ I was sick for about 10 years. I was told I would never have.

Children I was having a lot of gynaecological issues with it and I won't go too in-depth But I was told by this professor at Duke University where I was going to try and get some help, you know He said I would rule out having children and of course that was like a knife in my heart You know, if you don't want them, that's fine. But if you really want them and somebody says that, then it's ⁓ you know, and what I came to find was that I was severely mineral-depleted.

And so I started doing research on immunity, and like, how do you improve your immunity? And I started supplementing with zinc, and I also got my iron levels back in gear. So I have a low ferritin. So we're supposed to be able to store iron as ferritin. So we eat a steak and then our body takes that iron and it stores it as ferritin and then we can, our body can use that ferritin to make haemoglobin and whatever else we need. Well, my body doesn't do that.

And so some people have low ferritin, and it means they don't store iron. So they're going to have to supplement it. Now you have to be careful because iron can overdose on iron, you know? But when I started basically doing zinc, iron and B vitamin supplementation, and of course, like lots of greens and smoothies and eating more vegetables, my chronic fatigue went away. And so for me, I was mineral-depleted.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:22)

that you're listening.

So it was a mix of the supplements and the leafy greens.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (48:31)

See

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And just eating better, getting the zinc levels up, getting the iron levels up. And interestingly, now I know that these are so magnesium, zinc and iron, you know, are really important for dopamine. And people who are ADHD are very low in dopamine. And so what we have going, go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:03)

Oh no, it just, just dots are joining so much, and I just feel like you're explaining everything to me. So, you know, I think that it's, it's teaching me. I'm hoping a lot of people need to hear this. Just keep teaching. Go for it.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (49:18)

Yay,

yay, okay, good. ⁓ You want to try and find a functional medicine doctor if you can, ⁓ because you don't want to just start supplementing with iron, know, can overdose minerals you can overdose with. But ⁓ I can tell you that anxiety, the number one supplement for anxiety, is magnesium, and I'm going to tell you why. Because anxiety can be caused by cortisol levels that are too high, magnesium brings down cortisol levels.

So yeah, so a lot, I would say clients that start supplementing with magnesium, I would say 95 % are able to get off of their anxiety medications.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:03)

That is significant.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (50:04)

Thank you.

Yeah, and 98 % of the body's biological processes are dependent on adequate magnesium. And so what happens is when you have stress, your body releases cortisol, right? And so what happens when you release cortisol is cortisol depletes magnesium. So you get yourself in this terrible loop where you're anxious, okay? And so your cortisol levels are growing up, so your magnesium is getting depleted, but because your magnesium is low, you're anxious. It's a loop. So when you supplement with magnesium, you lower those cortisol levels, you get yourself out of there's fight, flight or freeze again, okay you get yourself into a calm state, all right, and then the anxiety goes away

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:45)

You mentioned how some of these levels can be an issue for people with ADHD. And that label is very much a trend in public conversation these days, ADHD. But I'm wondering, do you see people who, okay, first of all, is ADHD a spectrum, kind of like how autism is a spectrum? Can people be a little bit ADHD, and is it possible that a lot of adults or anyone might be a little bit?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (50:51)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:14)

ADHD and not realizing it.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (51:17)

Absolutely. Yeah, of course. So with ADHD, you're going to see different things. If you have people who struggle with what's called executive function. Okay. So again, here's that prefrontal cortex. Okay. That's the part of our brain that. Sorry. No. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So that's an executive function is also like.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:30)

Is that things like remembering your keys? Sorry, I interrupted. Is it things like remembering your keys?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (51:40)

I know how to do this process. have to do this step one, step two, step three, step four. And so if you see a kiddo or an adult who like keeps forgetting to do things or has trouble with like doing multiple steps of a process, that's executive function. That's a sign of ADHD. And so if you have hyperactivity, that can be a sign of ADHD as well.

We also know that, so here's what makes dopamine in the brain. Adequate levels of minerals and B vitamins, okay? Exercise and specifically what we call compression exercise. So jumping in a trampoline is about the most amazing thing you can do for a neurodivergent child.

Because yeah, it's gonna produce dopamine. Okay, so you wanna run, you wanna swim, or you wanna jump. That's how you're going to basically get the most dopamine into the brain, into an ADHD child. And so jumping on a trampoline is an incredible thing because it gives them dopamine. They're outside, I doubt they're in the house on a giant trampoline, right? ⁓ And it's compression activity. So what compression activity does is it resets the nervous system from fight, flight, freeze to a calm state.

And it's really good for your heart. Mean, compression, running, swimming, and jumping are about the best things you can do for your heart, strengthening your heart and your aerobic exercise. So like, if I have a family that has a child with ADHD, I'm like, okay, how can we work on a plan to get you a trampoline? And I had a family that put a trampoline on layaway for like three months and finally got it. And it made such a difference in their child's behaviour, they couldn't believe it. 20 minutes a day, 20 minutes after school every day. The child was able to sit down and do his homework. And before that, it was a two-hour battle every day. He got his homework done in 15 minutes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:34)

My goodness.

That's a message worth spreading in itself because it's a simple, practical thing. And I think I'd very, with some caution, go onto Facebook marketplace, things like that, to find someone who's getting rid of a trampoline that's in good shape. But it sounds like you would almost, it sounds like you would perhaps recommend that people should seek funding if they need that to get a trampoline.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (53:49)

Right. Yeah.

Exactly.

If they can, yeah, if they can get state funding. So a lot of the department stores have layaway programs. I know, like Walmart over here is a big chain. And that's what my family did is they did layaway at Walmart ⁓ for three months so they could get that trampoline. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:23)

Even if someone plans ahead to get a trampoline when they can, that's just, that's great to know that there's a solution, and it's fun.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (54:27)

you

It's fun and get in there with your kids. It is so much fun. There's so much you can do in a trampoline. You can play, you can run around and chase each other. You can play crack the egg where somebody like goes like this and the other people jump and they have to make you like let go. You can throw a football into the trampoline and jump and catch it. And somebody, if like, if you're a parent who can't get into trampoline, you can stand on the outside and throw a football and the kid can throw the football back to you. There's just so much you can do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:01)

Practical question here on the other side of the world, where I am, we're getting into this summer, and it's worth asking. ⁓ Look, I'm looking forward to it. Seriously. I love this sun and the water, but I'm wondering. You said swimming does this mean proper swimming in a pool, instead of just go to the waves and let them splash on you really move around and swim

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (55:06)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So if you want that aerobic exercise and you want that dopamine hit, you want to swim hard. You want to really swim. It's such the one thing about swimming, I would say, is something you could do your whole life. It's non-weight-bearing, right? So it's not going to hurt your joints. At some point, running might be too much for, you know, once you get to a certain age because it's harder in your joints, right? But swimming is something you could do your entire life, you know, and it is so good for you. Having said that, I will say going in the ocean is very healing.

I mean, it's just, it's incredibly healing. I went in the ocean a lot when I was sick. And I would feel so much better when I got out of it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:02)

to both.

I totally relate to that, so sounds like both have their benefits. Try both.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (56:10)

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think

like surfing, like where I live on the coast, we have surfers and that's really good exercise. Because you're in the ocean, you're having to paddle really hard, right? To get out there and then to catch that wave, you're popping up. I mean, it's really good exercise actually.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:27)

Okay, I'll keep that in mind. There's, I think, some sort of program near here called surfing on the spectrum, something like that. And I think I have to say, okay, look, what are people up to with all that?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (56:38)

Yeah that sounds amazing!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:41)

Yeah, I must say I felt so nervous about surfing myself, but I'm impressed by people who do. I'm wondering, do you surf?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (56:51)

I tried it a couple times, I gave it a real go for a whole summer and I kept getting kicked off, and like I felt like I was in a washing machine and the last time I remember I stood up on the beach, and I was dizzy, you know, and I was like, I don't think I could do this. But I have lots of friends that do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:09)

Fair enough. So if it works for some people, then get into it, but it's okay if some things are easier for us than others.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (57:19)

Absolutely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:22)

We've looked at almost everything. So it sounds like some of the common themes are to look, look at the nutrients and see a doctor if we're, if we're in a mood check that we're getting the vitamins and minerals that we need, but also connect with people to heal ourselves and to remind listeners of the school side of things, find advocates, whether it's

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (57:40)

Absolutely.

Thank

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:51)

So in both the school situation and your personal health, you're looking for advocates. It sounds like they are some of the key things that people can do.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (57:59)

Absolutely. Yeah, you need to find advocates. need to find connection and advocacy, I would say. ⁓ We are designed to be communal. We really are. Like we're built as a species to be communal. And we're also built as a species to have advocates, right? There have always throughout history been leaders. There have always been people who fought for and stood up for other people. We're designed that way. We're designed to be that way. So you can always find somebody to advocate for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:30)

And you can become a voice like what you're doing. People can become a voice who share the truth.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (58:36)

Yeah, absolutely. And if you can't find it, make it. Make it. I've seen parents do that. I've seen them create groups when they couldn't find a group to join.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:46)

Sounds like a good idea, and it's easy enough to do, just bring people together.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (58:50)

Mm-hmm, exactly. Come up with a name. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:55)

Easy. Are there any final thoughts that you want people to keep in mind as the last thing they heard from this conversation with you?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (59:05)

Yeah, I think.

I think just really trying to keep common humanity in mind and trying to stay out of fear and trying to lean into each other and being open-minded, listening to others. I think that goes a long way. Even if you don't think he will disagree. I mean, sorry, even if you think he'll disagree.

Listening to others’ opinions and trying to understand where they're coming from, I think, is how we can move forward.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:45)

Jessica Gamble-Bennett, thank you for so much wisdom on so many topics. It has been a real treat.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (59:52)

You're welcome. ⁓

Thank you, Melanie. I really appreciate you.