Podcast Episode: Egita Gielen, singer, guiding methods for confident speaking or singing

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Egita, welcome to the podcast.

Egita Gielen (00:02)

Thank you for having me. It's really pleasure to be here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:06)

You have a background in singing, and you have seen how people can improve their sense of well-being by experiencing music. Would you like to talk about what you've seen with wellness and music?

Egita Gielen (00:25)

Yes, I think it's really good here to share a little bit of my own story. So I am a classically trained singer. I attended a conservatorium, got my degree, and went out into the real world by singing classical music, which is also really healing and powerful. And in the meantime, I also work as a singing teacher. So I work with other people who want to learn to sing.

And I realised that, you know, just doing exercises or singing your Aries and songs for a lot of people is not the answer. Or some it is, but for some it puts a very high entrance, like Berger, and they feel very limited. So in the last few years, I have really asked myself what exactly is music for me, what is also particularly singing and voice for me. And I have seen that sometimes making very simple sounds like humming or chanting or even subconsciously, knowing, murmuring some kind of sound which comes out of you is much more healing and opens more doors for people to explore their voice and music than quote unquote following very classically built up singing lessons. And yeah, that has led me to more of this experimental part of my own practice myself as a singer, but also the way I see how singing voice and ⁓ more intuitive sounds can help other people to basically heal their relationship with their own voice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:16)

You can heal your relationship with your voice. One thing we can reassure people early on in this conversation is an answer to those who say that they think they can't sing. What do you say to those?

Egita Gielen (02:31)

Um, I truly, truly believe that almost everyone can sing. I'm not going to deny there is a very tiny percentage of the whole world population who we could name tone deaf people, and they will have difficulty to learn to use their voice. But most of the time.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:32)

Thank you.

Egita Gielen (02:52)

If you are an average person who uses the voice every single day by communicating with your family, with your friends, with your work colleagues, you already have the most important thing. You have two vocal folds inside of your throat. They are functioning. So you are able to learn to sing. What of course we need to remember is that most of us also have two legs. So it means that we can walk. We can maybe run.

But it doesn't mean that all of us are going to become professional athletes. And that's exactly the same also as the singing, just because we have it from the nature and we are able to make, in this case, speaking sounds. It's not going to make us professional singers. There I agree. Not all of us will become such professionals. But I truly believe that everyone who is willing to try

is able to learn certain singing for their own pleasure. The thing is, like I said, healing your relationship with your own voice is hard work. It's not easy. There is a lot of confrontation usually coming up. And yeah, it takes courage. It takes willingness. It takes a wish to risk, wish to be confronted by the sounds you make.

Also courage to figure out that maybe making sounds is not sounding as pretty as Madonna or Beyonce, but just getting something out of yourself. Then basically the magic starts to happen.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:36)

So it's about doing something not for perfection or commercial reasons, but finding the creativity and connecting with the instrument that we are all born with. It's really the one musical instrument that's internal.

Egita Gielen (04:52)

Yes, I also like I always when I work with people, that's one of the first things what I say. It's very easy. You know, you take a piano, you take a guitar, you take a flute, you make some kind of sounds like usually, you know, you pick a string, something sounds you hit on the keys, sound is coming out. Okay, maybe with the flute and woodwind or brass instruments is a little bit more complicated. You need to blow some air in, and sometimes the sound is not coming out. But still you are able to create something.

And the instrument is transpersonal, you know, it's something else. You pick it up, you hold it in your hands, and then you make a sound. But when we talk about the voice, I can't, I can't take my throat, like, yeah, I can grab my neck, but I can't get inside there. I can look at the pictures, how it's like, you know, in the books to see how it's built up. Yes, I can go to the ENT doctor and ask them, please put a camera. want to see my vocal folds.

So then I get, but like, can't like literally with my eyes, I can't look onto the instrument. I can't feel it. I can't touch it. And in the same time, when we look at our body, our whole body is involved in making sounds. It's not only like, yes, it is these two vocal folds.

But for example, even when we talk and we put the hand here on the chest, we can feel the tiny vibration, like your whole body is vibrating along when you are making sounds. If you put, like, sometimes, also fingers here onto the nose and make a simple sound, you will also feel that this bone is vibrating. So you already see how your... Yeah, like if you do...

Egita Gielen (06:34)

Yes.

Yeah. So you see, already, like your whole physical body is being involved in making sounds, and you are, we are usually not conscious about it. We are not thinking, ⁓ now I'm talking, and my chest vibrates. make humming sounds and suddenly there is a vibration everywhere here, but these are like bigger vibrations, which we can feel in the same time. It's actually your whole body, which is involved in making sound.

And then we arrive at the situation where it's not anymore an instrument, which I can take out of the corner, make a sound, something doesn't work. I put it back in the corner and say, you know, maybe the piano is not really good or, yeah, you know, no one tuned that guitar. That's why maybe it sounded shitty. Sorry for my language, but it's actually suddenly me. It's actually.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:24)

Click the button for explicit.

Egita Gielen (07:28)

I am making the sound, and if I do not like the sound, what I'm going to do is I am willing to work to improve it. Am I willing to admit that? Yeah, I do not sound like these top-level pop stars, but at the same time, simple humming calms me down. So what do I do with this realisation that it's?

Really, really me, not something what I can blame, but it's literally me making sounds. And how does it make me feel?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:59)

Okay, I thought of a few questions that I'm so keen to ask you, and I'll explain why. So my context is that there's a reason I'm not a professional singer, because I just could not become that, but I got into speaking, and you talked about how we use our breath for the woodwind, and we're breathing and vibrating.

Egita Gielen (08:04)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:25)

Either away when we're using our voice. And I'm wondering, I think you could teach some really crucial skills to people, whether they are singing or they are talking. Because of a couple of things, I hope that everybody can learn, and if you can tell us a few techniques from a singer's perspective, then that would be an honour. So firstly, one of the two, the first one is how to breathe properly.

As a singer, you probably learned there's a different way to breathe. And maybe unless you did a whole lot of yoga or something, people don't learn how to breathe. We don't know how to breathe. But the other thing I'm really wondering about is how to project your voice, because you said that we all have a voice that just is how it is, and what can we do with it? But some women in particular have a very quiet voice.

And I feel so grateful that I have a voice that's naturally loud. And I'm wondering, do you have a voice that's, I mean, you're on a microphone, so I'm not sure. Is your voice naturally extra projected, or did you have to work harder to project your voice?

Egita Gielen (09:27)

Actually, both questions are a little bit connected. I think when I look from nature, my voice is quite front forward. That's one of the qualities which I was lucky to have from the nature. And I particularly needed to work on creating more space around it, more roundness, that it's not only like an arrow going into everyone's face.

So that's if you ask about the projection and the breathing. This is a very controversial topic and from each basically from each singer, each singing teacher, each voice practitioner, you will probably hear a different answer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:04)

Why?

Egita Gielen (10:14)

When I, if you would ask me this five years ago, I would say, yes, there is one correct way of breathing. We all need to breathe like this. This is the best way. Let's go. Now, when people ask me this question, I start to get more also experimental, the same as with the sound, also with the breathing. We all breathe, right? As long as we are all alive, we are all breathing.

If there is someone who is not, very sorry, then like, you know, the conversation ends there. So from a nature, we already know how to breathe. The issue is that often when we are in our everyday life, stressors are coming on, and we are dealing with the so-called fight or flight response, which also influences our breathing.

So we forget this very natural way of letting air inside. For example, if you are the one who is fighting, we start to breathe very shallow. Like, gets very high. If you are one who are freezing, you are just stuck and you immediately feel how everything here in the chest gets tense. If it's fight.

Light, breeze, paw and paw. There is also the last one, the paw. And when they say that animals do this one, and they, yeah, let their belly, like I give up, I give up. say that there are no four stress responses, but basically one is where we are like stuck and other, all the other ones are when our breathing gets very high. So, this is the way when we forget how to let the air in naturally. So.

Egita Gielen (11:57)

I always say to my clients, ask yourself, are you in this like a stress response? And if you are, what can you change about it? And you will notice how, at that moment, your breathing pattern changes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:12)

So are you saying?

Egita Gielen (12:12)

Yeah. And suddenly there is no anymore like, okay, this is the right way. And this is the not right way. Because the thing is, for example, if I would now say, okay, let's now all take a really deep breath, you know, like,

When you start to observe your body, you will notice that there is certain restrictions, like wherever it's in the sides of the ribs. Maybe for some people, they started notice that they bring their shoulders up. I need to take a deep breath. Some are like really expanding chest and there is a tension, but the moment when you start to notice tension somewhere, we can't anymore talk about like, you know, a calm, natural breath, which will be the best to create a good sound. So.

I would say work with your stress response. If you can notice which one it is and then ask yourself why, like what is my stressor? Why I'm in this state now? How can I reduce it? And you will immediately notice how your breathing pattern changes. Of course, there are also a lot of breathing exercises. Let's call them like this.

which will all help you to overall calm your parasympathetic nervous system. Because I think it's also connected to public speaking, that we want to at least appear calm, or we want to trick our mind that we are calm, like, you know, I'm safe. This performance, this presentation, this speaking engagement is not my tiger, and it's not going to eat me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:33)

Yes.

That's important. Do you need to remind your singing students of that as well? The audience will not kill you. It's okay.

Egita Gielen (13:47)

Yeah, one of the things is, yeah.

Yes.

Yes, and it's also like you yourself are not going to kill because it's very often we are like we are thinking like I haven't learned it good enough. It doesn't sound how I want, but it already sounds better than yesterday. So you are already made that one tiny or half a percent further. So please do not kill yourself. Like this is it's just and part of life.

But I want to give us some like maybe exercises which can help. One of the really simple ones is just trying to breathe in, and when we are breathing out, we are making a long sound.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:33)

Is that because it slows it down?

Egita Gielen (14:35)

Yes.

And again, it's not about, do not try to like take as much air as possible because as I say, you create tension and it's much harder to calm yourself down. Then another one, which also really works with a parasympathetic nervous system is so-called box breathing, where we breathe in for four counts, we hold an air for four counts, we breathe out for four and we hold. So it's like...

In two three four hold two three four out two three four hold two three four, and like yeah, it's like a box square pattern, and it also with the counting and everything, it helps us to become more calmer, more relaxed, and probably you will also notice that your counting gets slower the longer you do it and then the first one, I said was the long sound as you can actually also do it with just humming at you like, because humming will extra let you be more calm. Yeah, here it's just like letting the first sound out, not thinking like, it high enough? Is it low enough? Is it the right pitch? There is no right pitch. When we are humming, it's just like, whatever is the first one coming out is actually the best one. So this is about the breathing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:02)

So for that last one, so sorry, for that last humming, I'm wondering if part of the benefit is that you're not having a big sigh out of the mouth, but because you are doing that humming, you're only breathing through your nose, and so it's going to go more slowly.

Egita Gielen (16:24)

You can also breathe through your mouth if you want to hum. It's just it takes extra because when our mouth is open, we need to close the lips when we will arrive on the humming thing. But it will not change the way. Humming, like what this humming does extra is that first of all, it creates that vibration. When it's sss, it's just a sound. It's a non, like.

It's a sound, but it doesn't have like a, let's say, vibration. That's the right word vibrations. When we are adding a pitch and our body starts to respond more because, like I said, in the beginning, when you put your fingers here, you will notice that your nose starts to vibrate.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:09)

Even the audio is going to be hilarious. I love this.

Egita Gielen (17:12)

Yeah. So, it starts to vibrate your body, and it also likes it; it wakes you up, and at the same time, it calms you down because this, like, you know, very continuous sound reminds us of something more ancient in ourselves. So, like you immediately not only breathe like breathing calms your parasympathetic nervous system, but also this, like, very simple sound.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:26)

Vibration.

Egita Gielen (17:41)

It's like you can compare it to almost like a meditative state. It's like a small disclaimer here. It's just like, if you do it only once, you probably will not feel it. Like, yeah, it's really fun, you know, to put your fingers here. Yes, I feel the vibration. I feel the vibration here in the chest, but to like really start to feel it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:56)

So by the way, I'll just add for one second, for those who are only listening, we are basically reaching our fingers across from the middle of the nose. It's kind of- do you call that the bridge?

Egita Gielen (18:10)

Yeah, like fingers on the sides of the nose. They can almost touch the bridge of the nose. But I would just invite everyone who only has a sound experience to also, yeah, try to touch your face. Maybe you will notice that your cheeks are also vibrating. Maybe it's your jaw, which creates a vibration. Touch your neck, touch your chest, like just feel how different sounds.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:10)

Yes.

Egita Gielen (18:35)

resonate within your own body. And so I will return back to what you asked before about that. You said that you have experience with females, women who have quieter voices. And when we arrive at the projection, I always work from two sides. One side is very technical. Like, yes, we need to get the calm breath because air is the basis of every sound you are making as a human being. Doesn't matter spoken, sang, scream, literally everything. You can try to breathe out all the air and then say something, and you will notice that it doesn't work. If you don't have any air inside of your lungs, you can't make a sound. So first, we would need to work on your breathing to get a calm way of breathing to control, like with a ssss or mmmm, so that it's more fluent, that it flows. That's one thing. And then the second part actually will most of the time be a psychological part related to self-worth and self-image. It's very hard to go and pretend to be

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:47)

Wow.

Egita Gielen (19:54)

That you are confident and that your voice is carrying wherever you want, if on the inside you feel small, not worthy, perfectionistic. Yeah, you can add here any kind of words which are coming to your mind. Yes, you can fake it. You can work very hard on, like, trying to convince people, like, no, I am like this, you know, like you are not going to listen to me. But usually, what we didn't notice afterwards is that people didn't resonate with your message.

You do not feel great after such a performance, speaking engagement. You start to doubt yourself again. So it's like a circle which keeps happening because the moment when you're breathing is sorted out, you feel calm. And also you're working on your self-worth. It's just much more easier to let your voice out.

Yes, again, we can theoretically work on projecting exercises, imagining how the sound is speeding out of our mouth and like screaming, like, hey, hey, hey, to get it further up. But I believe if you are not working with your inner world, and also, I will touch on something else, how your voice sounds. It's just very hard to give this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:06)

Thank you.

Egita Gielen (21:23)

Convincing performance, wherever you are singing or speaking. Because most of the time, also, and I think it's really relevant for females that we are often taught that we can't be loud. We need to be neat. know, like all the females are talking very, like very sweet, like be cute, be nice. And then we automatically think that

That's how we need to talk, you know? Like, the small voice. No one needs to talk like, Here I am, just a little bit. And I am very happy to see that there are just more and more females who also sometimes subconsciously are just claiming that I can be loud, I can be here, I can say what's in my mind, I can use my voice as part of my expression, and I don't need to stay small just because it's very easy for someone else.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:16)

Yes, you talk about being small or living

You talk about living small, and actually, a very, very impressive friend of mine months ago said that she'd been living small, and it was really startling to me, and I could visibly see the difference. And I think what you're identifying, this is really a revelation to me because

I seriously, I was around speakers for so long. And we were all led to believe that some women are just built with quiet voices. But now I'm realising that they are just talking the way they were conditioned to talk. But it sounds like what you're saying is part of what we need to do is just live big and be a bit larger than life and not apologise for it. Do you think that's a part of it? Just have a bigger existence.

Egita Gielen (23:14)

I think it's part of it. And I think it's also really important to ask yourself where your speaking patterns are coming from. Because that's, again, that's another layer. So one is a self-worse. all of us, we all have our family relatives where we have been born in, which will shape the way how we go around because as a small kids, know, we soak up everything. And when we see ⁓ different family roles, wherever they are traditional or non-traditional, we soak it up as the kids, and we take it on like, you know, I saw, I don't know, my grandmother talking like this, and my mom like this. So that's how I'm going to go. That's like a first thing. Then of course we grow older and we go out more into the society.

And we can see that, for example, Northern cultures, where I am part of, are much... I am Latvian, but I live in the Netherlands. So it's a bit a move. But yeah, like in Latvia, everyone is like, you know, just be quiet, don't talk too much.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:19)

Where are you?

Egita Gielen (24:32)

Basically, be silent, you know, that's like, that's how I was raised. And that also like influences the way how you are going around. And then when we look at more Southern cultures, like I will use as an example here from Europe, Italian people or Spanish people, they are just more expressive as a nation. So for them, it's much easier to go and like, here I am, here, I'm expressing myself the same, also like Mexicans, I don't know, they are just there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:50)

Do find also, question, you find that people in those countries, are they, I know it's a stereotype, I'm checking, do they talk with their hands a bit more as well?

Egita Gielen (25:12)

I think it's related to also our surroundings. But as I said, voice is part of your body. Why would you not... Like, okay, if I only talk like this, yeah, it gets too confusing. But if there is a movement which comes naturally when I'm making a sound, why would I try to cut it off and make myself here like a statue? Because this one feels very unnatural, you know to try to be like completely not moving. Like I immediately feel, yeah, yeah. And I also can't breathe anymore. Like, it's everything is starting to get so restricted. But then there is like natural movement. Why would we not use it? And here again, we need to look up. There will be people who will be more expressive. For someone else, it's just like, you know, being free, and I don't know, letting your hands hang on the side.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:42)

And I can see your shoulders are hunched up so much.

Egita Gielen (26:07)

And they don't need it. They will find their expression in a different way. But it's just, it's still come back to, yeah, you know, being restricted, being tensed, being in one position, that's all the moment when we restrict our body, we restrict the voice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:23)

So find your freedom and

So look after the voice, but you were saying relax. And the thing I wanted to compare that to, mentioned the box breath, the four up, hold for four and then down for four and then a hold and back again. That is also taught in yoga. And so I'll recommend that if someone is considering going to some sort of vocal coach,

But until they find that person, it's definitely possible to find people who can guide them in breathing and relaxation as a first step to improve the voice. And this is revolutionary because I'm curious if you had the experience where you grew up hearing about the techniques of how to perform, but we don't always hear about how relaxing can really improve our performance.

Egita Gielen (27:21)

I completely agree. And it comes back to that our physical body is instrument in this case. So we need to take care of it. Wherever it's, I can personally recommend yoga. I love yoga myself. I have learned a lot from it. Also exactly from a perspective of relaxation.

not only always being in this like high performative, but really like letting go and being in peace with it. But overall, any kind of physical activities, which take care of your physical body, are going to influence the way how your voice sound because you can't, yeah, you can't expect,

Your instrument sounds good if you're not taking care of it. That would be the same if I throw my guitar in a corner, never change its strings. And then only thing what I do is like, ⁓ you know, you do not sound good instrument. Yeah. Maybe I need to do something about it to make it sound better. So yeah, all kind of breathing practices, any kind of physical exercises, even being outside, you know, outside between the trees in the fresh air and then letting that air come into yourself is already taking care of your voice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:51)

It is, and the natural air, this is beyond going hippie, it's bigger than that. The trees, or let me know if you agree, being near the waves, getting the fresh ocean or sea air, any good air will cleanse and clear the system instead of perhaps being only under air conditioning or being in a stuffy room. So get out and just let yourself breathe properly for a bit, and it will make a difference. So if someone is about to get on stage for whatever purpose, it sounds like some of the things that someone can do as an early preparation step would be to get outside in some way before hopping on stage, whether it's a balcony, whatever is accessible and find a way to relax into the box breath. You can do that anywhere. You don't need extra space or resources to do that.

Egita Gielen (29:51)

Exactly. Like that's why also voice is so powerful. You always have it. You always have it with you, and only you are responsible for how it's going to be. And I completely agree. Go outside. Even if you think you can't, then do it extra. Like, there is this, I don't know who is an author of this quote, but ⁓

They're saying to spend 20 minutes a day out in nature, and if you are busy, then spend an hour.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:22)

NUTS

Egita Gielen (30:23)

I am not an author. I don't know who the author of this quote is, but I always think about it like, okay, if you are busy, then you actually need to do it more than just being outside.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:31)

It's true.

Look, I absolutely respect those who go to a gym. And I must say I have extra dependence on the yoga studio when perhaps there's very ghastly weather and I really don't want to be outside. However, there's something about being outside, and you have 24 hours in the day. So even if the day is extremely busy, we will

Create more value in the day if we take a moment to get outside.

We will create more value in our day, whatever we are doing, performing, or doing other work. If we're going to take that time, one hour out of the 24, we should be able to afford that one hour, whatever is happening.

Egita Gielen (31:21)

I would say even 15 minutes if it feels too big of a stretch and if you make it as a small daily habit like, now for 15 minutes I'm going, even if you walk around your block, know, probably you can see a small flower somewhere there even in the biggest metropoles, you know, trying to fight through the, all the asphalt and everything.

If you can just go out for 15 minutes and spend those 15 minutes on consciously letting the air in, consciously being in that place, letting yourself breathe and just know, observe your physical body. It's not going to, uh, not only going to, you know, be beneficial for your voice. It's overall beneficial for you as a human being. And as I say, 15 minutes, I.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:07)

Yes.

Egita Gielen (32:10)

I truly believe that even the most busiest people of us can find 15 minutes for conscious breath work outside.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:19)

Give you a very relatable Downsworth example, because I can tell you that this year, I did a bunch of presentations, but real life happens as well. And yesterday I went to an unfamiliar area, and I could feel the difference as I walked along a busy street, a busy road, there was so much traffic, and I could feel it. But then I found a tiny little park down the street and just had that moment, having a bit of quiet, getting the peace. So we do need to give ourselves peace, even if it's just for a moment and being near even a bunch of trees. It wasn't a big area. It was just somewhere. So even if you're in a city, if you, because we are going to be having listeners who might be in the suburbs, in the city, anywhere, find a spot anywhere, even if it's a block away for a moment.

And then it will just it will help you to mentally just pause. So even if you're mentally preparing for a song, a speech, something else, need that clarity that, that focus of I'm doing this now, because I'm really curious, actually, it's, it's nice that you do think about the mindset beyond just the physical act of performing. I'm curious, have you ever needed to just be mindful and say, I'm not going to think about what's going on, what's going to happen in the future, I'm not going to worry about anything else right now, I'm just here for everybody, and I'm just doing this moment. And that's all that's happening, and then it just clears everything else away because you're just showing up in that moment.

Egita Gielen (33:56)

When I think about performing, yeah, again, wherever it's singing or public speaking, I think this is exactly the right approach, both via the music. If you are performing music, you are just there in that moment. Past doesn't exist. The future doesn't exist. Because in the tiniest second, when you start to think about the past, and in this case, it would be like, How did I sing this line? Oh, didn't my sentence come out good? Do people understand what I'm trying to give them? You lose it. And it's the same also if you look for the future, like, oh, the next song, next song, song, what I'm going to sing. Oh, what do I need to think there? And you are lost from that moment when you are singing the line and people are listening to you. Or if you are having a speaking engagement and you start to think, What's my next chapter? Like, like what's going to happen again? You have lost it. So in these moments, yeah, you need to, and again, it's easier said than done. And it takes, again, it takes practice. takes willingness to try it, to just be there, be in peace with what's happening. Being pieces that sound which are coming out of your mouth instead of wondering what was there and what's going to be. You just can't balance that. You need to be here, here in the middle.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:18)

Yes.

You need to get this line out, whatever it is in whatever form, you need to get this line out, and you can't, you can't distract yourself with anything else. So there's something beautifully mindful about performing in whatever sense, whatever it might be. It's so mindful. And I think that, go for it.

Egita Gielen (35:38)

Yes.

And also.

Yeah, and also, for example, if you decide to include, like, these very tiny humming sounds, it's also no use to think about what's going to be. It's like just for a few minutes, you concentrate on the vibration which you are creating with your own physical body. And that really, it also brings us back to here and now. ⁓ Like, I don't know, I will describe a very like everyday situation like you're running cleaning the house and I don't know like there are kids toys and there is a kitchen which needs to be cleaned and then maybe upstairs there's a pile of laundry I need to deal with but if you just stop for a moment and you hum for a second like everything kind of gets away and you get back to yourself for those whatever is it the seconds is it minutes how long you are able to be but you can't like you know death

Yeah, you can, but you will not experience the full benefits if you just leave a comment, and you keep thinking like, hmm, my laundry is going upstairs. I need to clean the kitchen. Kids’ toys are there. I need to answer those emails. It's like, yeah, you need to turn it out for a moment to be back to yourself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:56)

That's where sometimes counting even how many seconds you're doing the humming or whatever exercise you might be doing. And my mental reaction when you mentioned laundry is that there's always going to be another pile of laundry. And maybe this is a bit universal. There's always more laundry, and the mentality that translates to performing. I can't believe I love that I get to just talk about performing here because we have so much parallel. So many people, pardon me, so many people, when they get off stage, whatever they did, they sit down, and then there's the inner dialogue, the I should have done this, I should have done that. And sure, look, sometimes big mistakes happen, but chances are it wasn't the entire 100 % of the show that was completely messed up. So a little glitch or a hiccup could happen here or there, but even though there's subjectivity. I could have done this part a bit more seriously. I could have done this part a bit more fun. And there's always something you could have done differently. So do you find that your students or anyone might get a bit caught up in the inner dialogue, and you need to just let it go and accept yourself? Be free.

Egita Gielen (38:15)

Yes and no.

The moment when we are going to repeat something, wherever it's a performance, speaking engagement, or the same thing again, we need to have that moment of analysing it. I never recommend doing it immediately after you have stepped off the stage. I think the best in that situation is to try to live in that moment. Like, you you were just on the stage.

You were in front of other people, or even if your engagement is online, you know, hopefully there is someone behind the screen, but you enjoy it. It's a, it's again, it's, it needs to be a positive stressor, right? Just, just be, yeah, just be there. Enjoy it. I did it, you know, and,

Egita Gielen (39:06)

Then, of course, there needs to come the moment where you need to analyse what exactly you did because ⁓ we are as human beings, we are always evolving. It's not that there is never an idealistic singing performance. There is never idealistic speaking engagement. Yes, maybe for someone who listens, they think like, my God, this is like the best which I ever have heard.

But for ourselves, we are always evolving. But my approach to this is, ⁓ and my students sometimes really dislike it when we do it this way. Say, OK, name me at least three things that went well. And they're like, but I made it. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not what went wrong. Please name me three things which went really well. What are you proud of?

I don't know, try to dig them out. Look for them. I'm sure they are there. And only when we have acknowledged what has gone well, then we look on what we can improve for the next time. Not what was the but what can I improve? Do I need to improve my music learning? Do I need to improve my stage presence? But again, with an idea of improving instead of saying like,

Yeah, but I made a mistake there.

Yeah, okay, great, but what are you going to do about it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:29)

Yes.

Exactly. What are you going to do about it? I am curious if you agree that there are some things that are a bit more objective. So

Get the pitch right and don't turn your back to the audience too much, things like that. I mean, there are some things we just shouldn't do. However, it's partly about not

Guilting ourselves is feeling shame, and we need to be empowered to say, Okay, every single performance will be different in some way. Maybe I took a bit too much of a gasp when I should have just been breathing more relaxed. Anything could have happened in a moment. So work on the things you need to work on. And you mentioned bringing attention to what went well. I love that you mentioned that, because the way that I learned to evaluate is to focus on something that went well, and then a couple of things to change, and then focus again on what went well. And it's partly to encourage yourself, but also if something is good, keep doing it. And if you don't know that maybe something new was done in a performance, and if you don't realise, this was good, you might not know to do it again.

Egita Gielen (41:46)

Yeah, exactly. Like if we do not acknowledge what we are already able to do, then we kind of, yeah, we don't know that we can do it. And sometimes we just need these tiny reminders. And also these things, you know, what went well for each one of us will be very different. For someone, it will be just, you know, getting on stage. Like that's already like, it went well, you know, I took the courage, I stepped on there. I was there like,

And then there will be someone else who is maybe busy with their voice already for a much longer time. There are things what they like for them, it even doesn't occur that stepping on a stage can be something what goes well. They're like, here I am, I go. And that's again, it's like, it's so different for each one of us as a human being where we are. Yeah, what you say is also important, not to guilt us.

Because I truly believe when we are in the guilt, like we are feeling guilty about something, we unconsciously start to punish ourselves. Because our mind thinks like, you know, when we look at all the laws and everything, that, know, guilty is supposed to be punished. And we are kind of punishing ourselves. And most of the time we are doing it unconsciously and in a nonlinear way. It's not like I...

I now said like something wrong and I don't know, I go and I, no idea, take my chocolate bar away for today. But it usually works a little bit in a different way. Like I feel guilty about something. And then at one moment I punish myself by sabotaging something completely else. And very often we don't see that direct correlation.

But it's just how our mind works because we think I now deserve punishment. So, into the feelings of guilt, not good for you. Again, like as just a human being.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:44)

Yes.

You need the pride, and that pride will translate into a performance. It goes back to if we feel the shame, then we could end up living small because we feel ashamed. We could be hunching a bit more or at least we could be just putting less energy in, and it could be just a bit retreated. But I think when we take pride in saying I'm giving this a go, then

Perhaps your voice even grows, and you can expand. So it's a form of confidence to say, Okay, I will give this everything I have. Do you think so?

Egita Gielen (44:25)

Yes, but it's also, I just want to ask you question. How long have you been doing this one, like speaking?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:32)

Oh, a long, long time. I grew up with it, but I really started basically in the year after high school. I, aside from a few years off, aside from a couple of years off, I was doing this basically in the last decade and a half. So, a while.

Egita Gielen (44:53)

Right? And you see, it's like, it's a really like, when we look at it at hindsight, we see that it's a really long time period where you have been busy with this one thing. And I'm quite sure that you are also still looking at how you can bring it to the next level. And, it comes back to it's not trying once. It's not trying twice. It's sometimes even not trying 10 times, sometimes waking up every single day and trying again. So also certain persistence is needed to be able, like what I said in beginning, persistence, courage, willingness to work, to do the work, however it looks for you, is the one which then brings you further, but we can't like, we can't expect that. Yeah, if someone today tries, okay. I did five times box breathing. did three times. I hummed my sound. Okay. At the moment, I feel super calm. I'm just running, and then everything crumbles. You don't understand what happened. That's also it's experience. You take it in. Probably there was something good in it as well. Yeah, you did the.

Preparation before you did exercises, you worked on calming your nervous system and that's what you take and you try it again and again till you suddenly realize that so many years have passed and yes, there is this improvement which you cannot see in the that moment when you are there but we can't expect that just by doing it once we will have it. With voice, it doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:37)

It's true. I think that there's a unique evolution that happens over the years, but in my personal experience, and I'm keen to hear what it was like when you got started with Eurovoice. So for me, I, of course, I found such a relief when I started speaking more because I didn't really, I didn't really thrive singing so much, but with speaking,

Initially, I was a bit flappy and a bit overexcited, things like that. And it was almost like this heightened fight or flight. And I didn't have any stressful thoughts, but it was just some sort of fight or flight. But I settled down. Basically, it took months, and even after a couple of years of focusing on other responsibilities and not presenting, when I got back into it, it was only just a few months.

But I did need those few months of consistency, and even with the podcast, I can tell you, I had only done my very first podcast episode in January, and then I wasn't thinking about doing one, but now you are, I think, the 30th conversation of the podcast. And there's something very freeing, and it's the consistency. Even, I hope everybody will get on a stage because it connects you with people, but also.

It's great to have online conversations as well to reach more people these days. And just getting consistent, even with that. Just my point is just keep at it for a while and let it be fun. One of my top tips that I try to get across is like what you said before about how it won't kill you. It helps to take it a step further and let it be in a professional and highly skilled way. Let it be.

Egita Gielen (48:15)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:27)

fun because then the listeners will enjoy that. Do you think so?

Egita Gielen (48:31)

Yes, yes for sure. And yeah, you asked me about how it was when I started. I started very young. My parents brought me to the music school when I was, if I'm not mistaken, eight years old. And it's partly because Latvia often goes into the world with the slogan country that sings.

And if you look up, you will find a lot of choirs, especially since choir singing is very popular in Latvia. And my parents thought, it's a great way to make our daughter do something. So let's send her to the music school. I really wanted to play piano or a Latvian national instrument, but we didn't have a piano at that time at home.

And my parents didn't want to invest in instrument at that moment. So they said, No, you're going to the choir class. You just use your voice. That's it. And basically, since that moment, I really fell in love with it. There is a funny story. My mom says that, I wasn't able to sing when they brought me to the music school. She said that she would always be ashamed when I was singing something, and she was really shocked when my teacher said, Okay, are you coming to the Christmas concert? Because Egitte is going to sing a solo. And my mom was like, My God, it's not that like they are going to embarrass my child, but what's wrong with those teachers? What are they thinking? She cannot sing, but okay, everything went well. And for me, it was quite clear that I really just want to continue singing quite early on.

And 30 years later, I am still doing the same thing. And yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:16)

question about that.

It sounds like the family had this fear of what if you feel embarrassed? What if something goes wrong? And it's like they, in a caring, loving way, they felt nervous for you instead of taking the leap. There's, there's sort of a nervousness when I can only imagine what it's like for the above generations when they watch someone just publicly doing something, and this is happening, and they can't do much about it.

Egita Gielen (50:47)

Yeah, yeah, it's like I heard it only later. I didn't know it when I was a child. My mom never said it to me when I was a child. She told me only later, when it was quite clear that this is the path I'm taking, I am staying with music. I am staying with the singing, but yeah, that you know all these years was a first of all, like, as a child, you know, taking lessons, being in music school, then deciding to really do it professionally. And it's again, it's, it's weekly lessons, not one lesson, several lessons a week, constant also self-work on your own voice. Even after finishing the conservatorium, a lot of experimentation has led me to this point. So it's again, like you say, also for you, it's not an overnight success by doing three exercises.

It's constantly being there, constantly working, constantly evolving and looking for that next step in seeing, okay, what else, what else I can add? How else I can experience my voice? And yeah, also allowing yourself to change perspective about, yeah, in my case, my voice, my, both my singing voice, my speaking voice.

It's a, it's very different. Like when I look back at how it was when, yeah, first of all, when you were a child, that's very different, but also overall, later, like through my teenage years, to my twenties, going into thirties, it's, it's constantly changing and being open to the changes, acknowledging them and then seeing, okay, what do I do with it? And how I am okay with, with how it is at the moment.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:28)

Yes. It doesn't happen overnight. And you started so young. I remember when I was in my mid twenties and doing more and just scaling up a little bit, but I'd been doing this for nearly half a decade, but people don't think about that. But for you, you'd been doing that for so much of your childhood. I think I'm running out of time a bit, but I'm really keen to wind up by asking.

What should we say to the people who have not been using their voices as much, or if an individual has not been using their voice in this kind of way for their whole life, not raised on vocals, then what is the reassurance beyond it's great that they showed up a bit.

Can we reassure them that they can grow and five or 10 years from now they can be in the same mindset we are in.

Egita Gielen (53:23)

I would say first take a breath, just breathe. Then, when you are, when you have taken a few breaths, then just make a sound. Don't think about if it's beautiful, ugly, loud, soft, doesn't matter. Just make a sound. So, it can even be a spoken word because that's also a sound to just give yourself a reassurance that your voice functions.

You have a voice; it is there. Next, what you are going to do with it is all in your own hands. As I say, again, start with just breathing, start with making some sounds. For a lot of us, that will be more than enough, you know, just to find, okay, yeah, I can hum along the radio when no one hears me, like, you know, yes, also sing in a shower.

That's completely fine. Just see what comes out of you. And then if you feel that urge, but there is something more, then start to look for the next steps. Like wherever it's working on your physical body, looking for someone who can guide you through the process, finding like-minded people who think about voice.

speaking, making sounds in a similar way. Trust me, when you will then in five years look back at that first step of that first breath, you will see like a really long and beautiful road behind you which you have walked.