Podcast Episode: Cindy Baker - neurodivergent business coach, former school counsellor and teacher, empowered with ADHD

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Cindy Baker, welcome to the podcast. Where are you?

Cindy Baker (00:03)

Thank you for having me. Good to be here.

I'm in a suburb of Memphis, Tennessee, in the US.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:12)

Nice.

Awesome. And you said you are a productivity coach. For those who don't know, let's start off with what exactly do you do in that?

Cindy Baker (00:24)

Yeah, so I empower entrepreneurs and other kinds of creative professionals to overcome, overwhelm, and manage their time, their focus and their energy, really, so that they can grow their business without burning out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:44)

We got so much to talk about with that. And we'll start off. said that you have ADHD. Is that a big part of how you run your business and how you guide people, how you work?

Cindy Baker (00:46)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's I have a background as an educator. I was a school counsellor and a teacher, and I worked with a lot of adolescents that had ADHD. And I thought, you know, I think I have this. And so I was diagnosed as an adult. And when I learned that I had ADHD, I started to learn about different strategies and practice some different ways of doing things that worked with the way my brain is wired.

And that's what I really started to see success. So I kind of went from, you know, being all over the place and having chaos in my life to being somebody that other people came to for advice. And that's kind of how the coaching program started.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:43)

What sorts of things did you see in yourself to realise that you have this?

Cindy Baker (01:48)

Yeah, so I had classic symptoms. was ⁓ late all the time and rushed, and I dealt with clutter, ⁓ had trouble regulating my emotions. I didn't manage time well. I was unorganised. ⁓ Just all the classic symptoms that you would think of.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:14)

The emotions as well, I hadn't heard that that's a part of it.

Cindy Baker (02:18)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's the front part of your brain, the prefrontal cortex handles executive functions. And one of those is kind of impulse control and regulating emotions. And so ⁓ that is a part of it. And it's not one that we hear about that much, but definitely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:43)

curious for the impulsive decisions. To what extent does it help when someone is a bit more willing to dive in with a new idea, especially being entrepreneurial? And to what extent does it leave us a bit vulnerable?

Cindy Baker (03:01)

Yeah, I mean, you have to take risks if you're an entrepreneur, and you have to be willing to try new things. People with ADHD love new things, and we love novelty. We love to chase shiny objects, know, and ⁓ new things. But at the same time, ⁓ the way to handle it is to take calculated risks. So you don't want to just dive in headfirst without considering what else you have on your plate, you know, because that's how we get overcommitted on our schedule. ⁓ Or you don't want to impulse spend without thinking about a budget and things like that. So you do want to be able to think ahead and think about consequences, but you also don't need to be held back in fear and never take a risk, or you won't really move forward in your business. So there's a balance there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:56)

It seems like there's an overlap then I'm learning so much about this already. I'm wondering if there's an overlap when people might be struggling with their intense feelings or maybe the emotions are flicking around a lot. And you mentioned the overspending. So is there an element of, because I don't identify with ADHD, but I feel like so many of these things are feeling very relatable.

Is it partly the impulsiveness of, I want this, but is it also the old attitude a lot of people can end up in, of buy this thing to make myself feel more comfortable.

Cindy Baker (04:35)

We are sure there's always, ⁓ you know, things that we do to try to make ourselves feel better. And some of those things are not healthy. ⁓ People with, with true ADHD have a lack of, or not a lack, but a shortage of dopamine in their brain, which is that feel good chemical. And so we ended up trying to manufacture it. So we'll, we'll sit there and, you know, scroll on our phone or something like that to.

to give us that little dopamine hit. So, ⁓ you know, spending, scrolling, all those kinds of things can give you that quick little high, but they're not always a healthy way to spend your time. So I think that's part of the reason.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:24)

Is there a way to get that dopamine hit from the work that we need to do instead?

Cindy Baker (05:30)

Yeah. And I think there's a, there's a misconception. People think that they have to feel motivated to take action. And, ⁓ so one of the things that I teach people in my coaching program is how to get started even when they don't feel like it. And it's not about just getting more willpower or making yourself motivated. There's a few brain tricks that you can do to lower that resistance. You know, for example, if there's something that you don't want to do, you can tell yourself, well, I only have to do it for five minutes. It's the five-minute rule. So, you know, you're more likely to start if you if you know you only have to do it for five minutes. But what happens is you do it for five minutes and at the end of the five minutes, you're, you're, the momentum kicks in a little bit and you're more likely to keep going. But if you need to stop, it's okay, because you said you were only going to do it for five minutes. So it gives yourself an out. So there's little tricks like that, that we talk about a lot ⁓that kind of ⁓ bypasses that, that dopamine and, and gets you going. And of course, if you, you know, if you, if you're only relying on feelings all the time, then you're never going to get anything done as an entrepreneur. Cause there's a lot of things we have to do that we don't want to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:55)

It takes a lot of discipline, and I'm guessing it's so much more involved than a 9 5 potentially.

Cindy Baker (07:05)

Being an entrepreneur, you mean? Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people, they think, oh, well, I'll quit my nine-to-five and I'm just gonna, you know, sit on a balcony overlooking the beach and type on my computer and make a million dollars. It doesn't work like that. Being an entrepreneur is really one of the hardest things that you can do because everything depends on you. You know, eventually maybe you can make enough money to have a staff, but then you got to

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:07)

Being an entrepreneur, sorry.

Cindy Baker (07:35)

You have to supervise the staff. have to train the staff. So there's a lot of responsibility and a lot of moving parts. ⁓ So you wear a lot of different hats. You're doing everything. And I think people are surprised by that sometimes. And so they think it's going to be a lot easier than it is. So there is a lot involved for sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:00)

did you make the transition? So you worked in education and counseling, and even you were working with kids. So how did you make the decision and then also the steps to go from working with kids to working with entrepreneurs? And how did you decide that you wanted to do this instead?

Cindy Baker (08:05)

Mm hmm.

Yeah, well, was sort of a gradual, ⁓ it wasn't just like a bam, I made the decision, you know? ⁓ I actually, well, I'll tell you the story. My principal changed my job on me, and I wasn't really happy about it. And then that ended up happening several times because I am certified in too many things and I just...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:44)

What do you mean?

You're certified? What are you certified in?

Cindy Baker (08:48)

⁓ Every subject grades four through eight. School counsellor, kindergarten through 12th grade, ⁓administrator, kindergarten through 12th grade. So, pretty much, I was very versatile, but that's not really what I wanted to do. So I kind of thought, you know, I want to be my own boss. I don't like this, somebody else, you know, putting me in a position that I don't really feel like is the best fit and

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:52)

gosh.

Cindy Baker (09:17)

⁓ and I adapted and I did fine, but, ⁓ that kind of put the bug in my, in my head at that time. And then, ⁓ I stumbled online, on some online courses and some coaches and things like that, and started kind of learning about this online world. And the first thing I did is actually started a travel blog, but then the pandemic hit and people stopped traveling. And so I ended up joining a business coaching program ⁓ and it fits really nicely with my counselling background ⁓ and education. ⁓ And I picked the niche of ⁓ productivity and ADHD because I felt like that's something that there's a real need for, and it's something that I know a lot about. I can help people. And there were already so many people

offering programs for students. And then sometimes there's some legal complications when you have to work with the school system and things like that. So that's why I chose adults. And I read somewhere that over 50 % of entrepreneurs have ADHD. Now, I don't know if that's true, but it does seem like that it draws those kind of people that get bored easily. They got a lot of ideas. They want to try things.

And so I just kind of, ⁓ I ended up attracting a lot of entrepreneurs and, ⁓ like I said, they don't all have ADHD, but they all kind of resonate with those, ⁓ struggles, get distracted easily, ⁓ get overwhelmed, don't manage their time well, things like that. So, yeah, so there's, that's kind of the Cliff Notes version. There's probably a longer story to that, but it just kind of gradually happened and, like I said, as I began to see success in my own life, ⁓ when I started helping other people, I really enjoyed it. I've always kind of been in helping professions, and I wanted to have a business, but I wanted it to be something that I felt like I was making a difference for good. I didn't want to just make money.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:34)

For sure. You want to actually have a purpose behind what you're doing. And so you've really seen that a lot of people who start their own business think differently. And that I think will be a great source of empathy. We know that some some big public personalities have even dyslexia, or people are

Cindy Baker (11:48)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:02)

was seen to be possibly on the spectrum, things like that. So there are all these different types. And have you found that people are finding comfort in doing something for themselves instead of trying to fit the box and the mould of the mainstream system?

Cindy Baker (12:20)

for sure. I mean, my philosophy is that if you do have ADHD, it can actually be used as your superpower. You've probably heard that. You can have a competitive edge over others, but the trick is you have to learn how to work with the way that your brain is wired, which is a little bit different than traditional time management teaching. And if you can figure out how to work with your brain instead of fighting against it, trying to fit into somebody else's way of doing things. That's where that real freedom comes in. And people start to, you the light bulb comes on, people start to see, wow, there's another way to live. I don't have to be stressed out all the time. You know, I can actually get things done, get the important things done, have balance in my life. ⁓ And that's really rewarding to help people with. But there definitely is, you know, a difference between the way kind of the gurus out there teach things and doing things the way your brain is wired. So I'm really big on having a positive ⁓ perspective on ADHD or anything else that you have. I'm a person of faith. I believe everybody was created on purpose for a purpose, and that people who think differently have something to offer that nobody else does. There's a reason that they think outside the box. Some of the greatest inventions and really successful entrepreneurs are like that, are very creative and think outside the box. Don't do things the way everybody else does, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:11)

That's seriously reassuring. Reminding, reminding everybody that we're different for a reason and for a beneficial reason.

Cindy Baker (14:14)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:22)

Yeah, it was.

Cindy Baker (14:22)

Yeah, if everybody

was the same, it'd be a boring world. You know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:26)

Yes.

True. And have you seen that people are able to actually, here's a question within the people who you guide. Have you been seeing people coming up with fresh ideas and solutions in whichever spaces they are in because they think differently?

Cindy Baker (14:46)

Yeah, you know, not everybody is creative, but I do think that ⁓ everybody has some creativity in them and that can be brought out once they start to realise how to work with the way their brain is wired, you know, so definitely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:06)

Definitely. So although it's, although you have found your space now working with adults, I have some questions because you did work with kids and in education for so long. It's worth asking about that because if someone has seen an area, then why not? Why not benefit from that experience? So I'm curious. I'm curious. Well, how long ago did you

Cindy Baker (15:20)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:34)

were you last in that space. And I'm wondering what would you say to young people who know that they are different in, let's face it, a mainstream system or environment that still requires people to fit some norms even today?

Cindy Baker (15:57)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is a struggle for them sometimes. You know, sometimes they have to try to just play the game a little bit in order to ⁓ survive. But I always tell young people, find the thing that you're really good at and get better at that, because that's where your self-esteem is going to grow. For instance, if you're not good at math or whatever else, but you're great at art.

Then just draw all the time, you know, get as good at it as you can, because that's probably what job you're going to have one day, you know. Everybody has different talents and different interests. And so if you can figure out with a young person what really lights them up and what their ⁓ talent is, their natural ability, their interests, and instead of constantly

working on the areas of weakness and reminding them of where they're failing, you want to also compliment them on the area that they're strong in. And I think that's one of the things that really helps. If that makes, I don't know if that makes sense, but.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:13)

It really does. And I'm hoping that today's young people they're probably having more opportunities perhaps to explore different strengths online if something isn't taught in schools. But I know, I know, just remembering what it was like when I was young, there wasn't, I didn't see at least a way for me to run a podcast back then, anything like that. So I think that I'm hoping they have more opportunities.

And so you're saying focus on the strengths, don't dwell on the things they are not so good at. That can probably help people of any age to focus on your strengths.

Cindy Baker (17:56)

Yeah. I mean, you have to work on the challenges and you have to, ⁓ I mean, those, those are the strategies that I teach in coaching is how do you, ⁓ overcome your challenges. But if we just spent all the time on that, that's kind of depressing, you know, so, or discouraging, maybe not depressing, but, ⁓ you know, ⁓ finding the thing that you're good at and continuing to grow in that area.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:11)

it.

It could be.

Cindy Baker (18:23)

makes you feel good, you know, it gives you ⁓ not just job options, but it gives your self-esteem a boost. And I think that's part of it. You just gotta have a balance.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:37)

It empowers your identity. So we do still need to look at the things that we are not as, as confident in. And I'm so keen to ask about that because some of those hurdles still continue in any age and during any age, I was never feeling like I was a math person. to this day.

Cindy Baker (18:39)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:05)

I'm just not so, I'm so curious about how you guide people who set up a business because maybe they, like you said, they don't like being told what to do all the time, or they like variety or independent decisions, anything like that. They start up a business for all these reasons, but then there's all this math behind it or having to be ultra organised.

Cindy Baker (19:32)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:33)

How do you guide that? You tell them just get someone else to do those things, but they still, it's still on them at the end of the day, the accountability. How do you guide that?

Cindy Baker (19:42)

Yeah, when you first started, you don't have the money to just get somebody else to do it. So you do have to kind of do everything. And, you know, I just remind entrepreneurs that no one was born knowing how to do all of this. You know, everybody has to learn, and everybody can learn. So, ⁓ for instance, I'm not particularly gifted in technology.

But I run an online business, so I had to learn a lot of things. ⁓ you have to have a, what I call a growth mindset instead of a fixed mindset. So, for instance, if you say, Well, I'm just not good at technology, that's a fixed mindset. Like I've never been good at it. I never will be good at it. I can't grow. It's just fixed, you know? ⁓But a growth mindset would say, I'm not good at technology yet, but I'm working on it. I'm learning. It's a growth mindset, and you have to have that as an entrepreneur. And so you have to be able to be willing to learn things that you don't know. And sometimes it's frustrating. Sometimes it means I got to watch 8 million YouTube videos of how to do something. then of ⁓ course, getting somebody to help in the areas where you're struggling is great, but you don't always have that option. So sometimes you have to be able to, you know, learn, learn new things or just not do everything. You know, sometimes people think they need to do things the way their business coach does. Well, that business coach has probably been in business for 10 plus years, you know, and they didn't start out there.

So that's a temptation is to compare your chapter one with somebody else's chapter 10 and think that's where you're supposed to be. But no, like I said, no one was born knowing how to run an online business. have to, you have to learn and everybody starts there. Everybody that you're comparing yourself to has something that they feel like they don't know much about. It may be a different than what yours is, but everyone has those areas.

And so yeah, it's great if you can delegate, the thing about that too is that ⁓ if you don't know anything about how to do it yourself and you just hand it over to somebody else, you really don't have any way to monitor what they're doing and make sure they're doing it the way you want them to. So you really need to kind of know a little bit about everything in your business.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:29)

Do you go with starting off with at least a simplified basic understanding of all the essentials? I mean, I'm wondering some people were hoping to be an expert in everything, but I heard that Branson, for example, had to have people explain to him what the net and gross are and

Cindy Baker (22:44)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:56)

It was, it was very much you have a net and it's getting this. So do you see people really needing to reel it in and get the basic level understanding of something? And is that feeling a bit more achievable?

Cindy Baker (22:57)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think you can only do what you can do. And if you try to take on too much, you're going to water down everything you're trying to do. And so you have to get, get something down first before you add something new to it. ⁓ And I think that's, know, some people they want to, they want to have, you know, five different funnels and run ads and do this and do that. And they don't need to be doing all that the beginning. You know, they might just need a ⁓ payment link, a calendar link and a Zoom or something like that or a Facebook live, you know, and just as simple as that, you know, just get on video and talk about something and then say, Hey, I've got this. Here's the payment link, you know, you don't even have to have a funnel, you don't have to have all of that at the beginning, you know. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:52)

simplify.

Cindy Baker (24:12)

And you can even say, Hey, this is brand new. I don't even have a fancy landing page built or anything yet. And I've done that before. Sometimes I've said, you know, I don't even have this built out yet, but if you want it, you know, here's how you pay for it. I'll send you a confirmation email as your receipt and then I'll give you access to the course or whatever it is. And sometimes you do have to just simplify it and not be so

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:20)

You have, did that go?

Cindy Baker (24:40)

I think sometimes we get so perfectionist, ⁓ perfection, how was the word, perfectionistic, I guess, you know, you know, and then we try to make it more complicated than it needs to be. But really, well, you eventually would benefit from having them, but at the very beginning, you know, you just need to make some money so that you can move forward.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:44)

Yes.

Fictionist.

So you don't need the funnels necessarily.

Cindy Baker (25:09)

And so you have to just, if you just keep waiting until everything's in place, you're going to get behind financially, you know, so because you're probably going to be ⁓ paying for some things along the way. And you got to, you have to make it simple so that you can, so that you can do it, you know, cause you're not going to have help at the very beginning.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:34)

start with the basics and then get a bit more fancy as you go along.

Cindy Baker (25:38)

Yeah. I mean, the first thing for people who just brand new, just thinking of starting a business, the first thing is you have to, you have to decide who your audience is. Who do you, who do you want to target? And then you find out what is their, ⁓ struggle? What's their problem that they would be willing to pay money to get a solution for, you know? ⁓ and you can find that out different ways. I you can.

You can look at Facebook groups, and I looked at Facebook groups of people with ADHD, and I read their comments, and I saw the different things they were saying that they struggled with, and things like that. ⁓ And then you develop your service or your product to meet the needs of those people. You don't start with the product and then just decide to sell it because maybe nobody wants it. Maybe nobody needs it.

And then you've just wasted all that time. So first you got to find out what, what are people, know, who, do I want to target and what are their struggles? What's their pain? They call them pain points, you know? And so then I'm going to develop a solution and then you have to, you have to be able to say why your solution is different than others. Why, you know, you have to, have to, has to be a solution that you know something about.

because no one's going to believe you if you know, I mean, if I, if I went and tried to sell accounting services or something like that, nobody's going to buy that from me because they can tell. don't really know what I'm talking about. So, you know, it's just step by step like that. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:14)

you

Actually, there's a point you applied your personal lived experience of having identified with ADHD. And do you find that people are finding more strength in what they are offering when they are bringing their personal experience into what they do?

Cindy Baker (27:41)

Sure. Yeah, I think, you know, I decided my mess was going to become my message, is how I say it. So I ended up saying, Okay, these were my struggles. This is how I overcame it. And now I can help you do the same thing. And that really resonates with people. Whereas if I just said, hey, I have a master's in counselling, and I read a lot about ADHD in a book and here's what you should do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:48)

Nice.

Cindy Baker (28:08)

That is not going to fly as well. But if I say, this is something I personally struggled with, here's what I did. Here's how it worked. Here's what my clients did. Here's how it worked in their lives. So stories, ⁓ success stories, testimonials, those are going to sell a lot better than just information. Because you can get information for free on the internet.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:34)

You really can.

Cindy Baker (28:35)

It, but you gotta have, you gotta be offering more. And I always tell people, you know, I do offer strategies, ADHD friendly strategies, but you can get those for free anywhere. The difference is that I, I give the structure to apply that specifically to your situation. And then I give you the support that you need to implement those strategies. And you can't really get that without a coach, I think. So many people try on their own, but it's very difficult.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:10)

You provide the guidance and also the lived experience. What I appreciate about you is that you get the credibility from having the professional background, but then the relatability from who you are.

Cindy Baker (29:28)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, especially nowadays with, you know, AI and deep fake and all that, you, really need to take the time to let people get to know you and trust you and, hopefully, like you, but because they're not going to buy from you if they don't. ⁓ and so I do a lot of free training just to do that, to get people to see my teaching style.

You know, always tell people, hey, I'm, you know, for 20 years, I explained things to ⁓ middle schoolers. So I know how to break down complex things into simple, step-by-step, easy-to-understand. And I think people really relate to that. They like that, you know, ⁓ because you can overcomplicate things. So that's one of the things, for instance, that people really like about me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:01)

You

Cindy Baker (30:25)

I try to let people get to know me. I serve people who ⁓ have a faith or don't, or all different faiths, but they know where I'm coming from ⁓ that I have a Christian faith. And so some people are going to relate to that. And some people, if they hate that, they need to know that about me. So that's who I am. You know what I mean? So I kind of like to let people get to know me. ⁓

They need to know that I was a teacher. They need to know I'm married and my grandma, you know, these different things about me that helps them decide if they can trust me or not, because I'm, I do not ever want anyone to, um, uh, to think that they got, they're getting one thing and then join my program and find out they're getting something else. You know, I want them to, to really know me and know what they're getting. If that makes sense.

You were saying that you're, you said that who you are shapes how you relate to your clients, your audiences and the faith. I wanted to look at that for a second because the faith.

Cindy Baker (32:11)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:31)

I think we're living in a really interesting time. And I think that some people get really nervous about religion. For me, I came from a religious background when I was young. I'm sort of on the fence about religion, but what I like about particular people of faith is that they see the inherent value in people. And I think we live in a culture where

We feel like we're more valuable when we have achieved something, when we have a title. I will be somebody when I'm this. And do you find that you're able to really see the inherent value in people more because of your faith?

Cindy Baker (33:16)

Yeah, I think so. And like I said, I don't really talk about it that much in my coaching, but ⁓ I mean, I've had a long-time coaching client who was an atheist and every once in a while she would ask me, you know, she was curious. So someone asked me, I'll say something, but I think that the one thing that they do see is that I care. ⁓ And sometimes, honestly, sometimes that keeps me from making a lot of money because I sometimes will help people for free when I really should be, you know, more hard-nosed, supposed to make some money, you know. But there are, I have a soft heart, and there are people that, you know, they pay me, they join the coaching, and then I end up helping them more than they thought. And they're pleasantly surprised, you know.

I'll answer emails in between Zoom calls and do different things like that. Send them resources that they didn't ask for that I just thought would be helpful. And I do, like I said, ⁓ try to help people see the way that their brain is wired as a gift instead of trying to fight against it all the time. And I think that that's something that people appreciate because I do believe that every, like you said, everybody has inherent value, and we're supposed to be different. And there's a reason for that. So I have a little phrase I call three P power, and the three P's are positive, prepared, productive. So the positive is a big thing. Cause I've joined, like I said, when I was trying to find out what ADHD people need, I would join these Facebook groups, and I'm not going to call any out, but there's supposed to be support groups. And it was just, you know, a wine fest. was like, ⁓ my life is terrible because I'm ADHD. the, you know, and I thought, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:22)

Was it groups for neurodivergent people?

Cindy Baker (35:27)

Yeah.

And I thought, no, that's not, that's a wrong way to look at it, you know? And, so I really don't like making excuses or blaming, ⁓ the way God made you, I don't like blaming that because I've seen how people can be super successful and productive. The key is learning how to do it a little bit differently. And that's really what I teach.

So ⁓ definitely, people enjoy that different twist because they're probably used to people blaming, you know, and people expecting everybody to understand them all the time. And I've said, you know what? Nobody, it's not their job to understand you. You're not going to be understood by everybody, and it's okay. You know, that's why a support group like mine is so great, because everyone gets each other.

And they're able to support each other and accept those differences, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:31)

Yes. I think what you're saying aligns with an attitude I heard of that's called neuroaffirming. And I don't, I don't get into the theoretical side of all of that so much. I'm not a therapist. I was originally in a marketing background, but what I'm seeing in what you're saying is that being different isn't a problem to fix. It's something to align with.

Cindy Baker (36:54)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I mean, again, there has to be that balance because you do have challenges that come with being neurodivergent, and you need to work on those challenges in order to fit in society and be successful. ⁓ For instance, time management. If you don't manage your time, you're never going to be successful in business. know, so that's something you have to work on. But at the same time, you have to also see that you have some strengths and be able to accept both and be able to live in that balance, if that makes sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:36)

For some reason that aligns with the phrase I heard growing up of be in the world, but, ⁓ but not of the world, be in the world, but not of the world. And I know it had a different intention, but I think that when we know that we are so different, do you think that it helps to say, okay, I'm going to adapt to some things that are needed to just interact with the world, but I'm still going to be me at the same time in other ways.

Cindy Baker (37:45)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, ⁓ like with young people, I would try to teach them that, Hey, it's okay to speak, ⁓ real casually and use slang and all that with your buddies. But if you go on a job interview, you have to talk differently. You have to use correct English, and you have to not use all that slang. And so you're adapting to that situation and we do that all the time, context switching. And so in order to be successful, you have to be willing, you can't expect to just barge through life, act however you want, and expect everybody else to be okay with it. Because the reality is they're not gonna be okay with it. So you have to know when to pull it in and when to let it out, if that makes sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:54)

You need to speak the language that other people understand.

Cindy Baker (39:04)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I were to go into a boardroom of executives, I would speak a lot differently than I would in a classroom of middle school kids. And that's okay. You know, I don't need to expect one group to adapt to the other. I'm the one that needs to adapt. And so that's one of the things that, that's one of the reasons that coaching is so helpful because then you learn more about yourself and you learn what your strengths and weaknesses are and how to adapt without giving up who you are. ⁓ If that makes sense. There's so many entrepreneurs that are so creative and think outside the box and just do things differently, march to the beat of a different drum. And that's great. ⁓ But they also have to work on time management, organisation, and things like that to be successful.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:05)

Yes. And I appreciate your angle to coaching so much because there'll be some out there who want a business coach who has grown a giant business, but they wouldn't have the counselling background that you have. And what I'm seeing is that you are giving business owners the life skills, essentially, things like managing your time.

In my experience, we need that for all aspects of life, where things would be chaos.

Cindy Baker (40:38)

Yeah. I mean, if you can't manage your focus, ⁓ you're never going to be successful. That's just the, that's just, think managing your focus is more important than managing your time because we all have the same amount of time, but, ⁓ it's how you spend it that matters. Some people will say, Well, I just wish I had more hours in the day. And I always say, well, you don't need more hours. You just need to do what matters in the hours that you have. That's the key.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:45)

Your focus.

Vroom.

Cindy Baker (41:07)

So that's what I help people with. know, what are the, what matters? That's where you need to be focused.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:15)

Is that actually that's really interesting? The focus, it's not just how can I not be distracted. It's what is the thing that matters that I need to focus on.

Cindy Baker (41:29)

Yeah, I mean, what are you trying not to be distracted from? What are you doing that you need to not be distracted from? So one of the things that I suggest is that you just kind of do a brain dump where you pour everything out of your head and write it down. No organisation, just get it all, all the things you're trying to remember, the to-dos and all that. And then you need to pick no more than three

Each day, there are high-impact tasks, things that the outcome is really going to move the needle in your business. And those are your priority. And you have to guard that with your life because that's if you don't do those things, it's going to it's going to have a negative effect on your business. You could you could not check your email, and it's not necessarily going to make or break things, you know, but if you don't ever talk to clients, it's going to make a difference, you know, so the problem is we end up spending our time doing the non-important things because those are easy and there's no friction there. You know, it's hard to do the important things. So, ⁓ but if you can knock those out at the beginning of the day,

Then even if the whole rest of the day goes crazy, you've already won because you've done your three important things, you know? So that helps a little bit.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:02)

So sometimes we're doing the easier things because it's more comfortable, but sometimes the easy thing isn't what's going to have the impact.

Cindy Baker (43:12)

Yeah, yeah, it's like ⁓ there is an illustration that I like. If you see your day or your life as a jar and the tasks that you have to do are rocks, pebbles, and sand. And if you put the sand in first, the sand is the easy stuff, admin things, meetings, email, then, and then you try to put the pebbles, which are the important things, but they're not quite as urgent.

And then you try to put the really important and urgent things that all the sand is going to spill out and it's not going to fit. So you have to put the rocks in first and then the pebbles and the sand fit around it. And I like to think of it that way because it's a visual way. You don't want to waste your, you know, the time of day when you're the most focused and the most, you have the highest energy. You don't want to waste that time.

doing silly admin tasks just because you don't feel like doing the hard thing, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:13)

that analogy, that way of explaining that you only can fit so much in your day and you need to fit the things that will make more change. And it's about managing your energy by the sense as well that if you put your energy into the little things, then you're going to be too exhausted perhaps for the things that are going to change your life.

Cindy Baker (44:38)

Yeah, definitely. I mean, we all have energy cycles throughout the day, and ⁓ you don't want to waste your peak energy time on the admin things, you know, because you can do that other times of the day.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:56)

You can. So actually there's an idea. Do you have some people doing the easier things, like the admin or maybe their content, in the tired moments at the end of the day?

Cindy Baker (45:10)

Well, everybody's different. know, not everybody's tired at the end of the day. Some people, it takes them a while to get going, you know? So I do tell them to pay attention for about a week and just kind of track, take notice, maybe take some notes in the journal or something about when are you the most alert, focused, when...

When are you emotionally up, you know, those types of things and start to kind of plan your day around those energy cycles and see what kind of difference it makes. ⁓ Because some people, you know, they get carried away with something, they get really into it and they do what we call hyper-focus and they'll just work, lose track of time, you know. And if that's the case, then ⁓ they can set a timer.

and say, you know, I'm going to work on this for this amount of time. And when the timer goes off, I'm going to stop. Otherwise, they get carried away, and then they run out of time to do the other things, you know? So there's a lot of little tricks that we teach. What's that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:17)

It's almost like an addiction. Like, we just get, sorry, it's almost like an addiction. Like, we just get hooked on something that we're ultra interested in.

Cindy Baker (46:25)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And if you can channel that to your advantage, that can really be a good thing, but you have to be able to ⁓ be aware of it before you can channel it to your advantage, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:30)

That's relatable.

So the first step is to know yourself and take the time for a little while to observe the patterns.

Cindy Baker (46:52)

Yeah, yeah. Because a lot of times, you probably just haven't thought about it. You know, we just sort of do things without thinking. ⁓ And so paying attention for about a week, you know, because that's like give you a pretty accurate picture.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:10)

about a week. If someone is to wind up a little bit, I know that if someone is just getting started, considering switching to owning their own business, what are three things you want anyone to know when they are taking that leap and trying to do it in a wise way, aligning with how they are built?

Cindy Baker (47:35)

⁓ Well, I think one thing is, don't quit your day job too soon. Do it on the side until ⁓ you're sure that you're going to be financially okay if you quit your job. Because too many people just start to get so interested in their business that they lose interest in their regular job, and they don't want to do it anymore. They get burned out.

And so they think, well, I'll just quit, and then I'll have more time to work on my business, and it'll be more. But if you haven't made it profitable part-time, they probably not gonna make it profitable full-time either. You have to be able to know how to make sales before you. So don't quit your day job too soon. You're nine to five or whatever you want to call it. I think the next thing is just to check expectations.

You know, and there are a lot of people who put false images out on the internet, you know, and I don't mean just visual images, but I mean, like they'll say, they'll have copy that says, you know, my client made $700,000 in three months. Here's, here's how she did it. And I'm thinking, you haven't even made, like, I might know the person, and I'm like, you didn't even make something, you know, so you have to be careful that you don't.

Look at people on the internet, you know, and maybe they're showing their highlight reel, and you're comparing your everyday to that. So your expectation has to be realistic that it's hard work. It takes a long time to get it going. ⁓ But small, consistent actions over time have a compounded effect. So you have to just keep doing the right thing day after day after day. ⁓

You know, and then I guess to just keep a servant's heart, you know, don't be in it for making money because you're not going to be happy. Money doesn't make you happy. You know, it helps. I'm not going to lie. You know, nobody wants to not have enough money. But at the same time, you know, they've done studies of

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:48)

Thanks.

Cindy Baker (50:02)

people who, like, how much money they had to have to be happy. And the happiest people were not the richest people. They were the people kind of in the middle, which was interesting. It's almost like when you get more money, you more responsibility and more, you know, more problems that come with it. So focus instead on helping people, and the money will come, you know? So keep that servant heart, you know, have a... ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:07)

Thank

Thanks.

Cindy Baker (50:33)

try to leave the world a better place, have an impact instead of trying to just make more money. There's a lot more of it, and those are some.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:42)

A servant.

Service mindset. Absolutely. So keep your day job as long as you need to and, and be realistic and have a servant mindset. They are serious lessons everybody needs to know for sure. Cindy Baker, thank you so much for taking the time to teach from all your wisdom. Thank you.

Cindy Baker (50:52)

Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:12)

Awesome. It's been great. Okay.