Podcast Episode: Dr Matt Zakreski, neurodivergent clinical psychologist and speaker

Podcast Episode Dr Matt Zakreski, neurodivergent clinical psychologist and speaker

# 🎙️ The Motivate Collective Podcast – Show Notes

## Episode: “Be Curious, Not Furious — Embracing Neurodivergent Brilliance with Dr Matt”

**Guest:** Dr Matt — Clinical Psychologist, Speaker, and Neurodivergent Advocate

**Host:** Melanie Suzanne Wilson

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## 🎧 Episode Summary

Clinical psychologist and global speaker **Dr. Matt** joins Melanie Suzanne Wilson for an energetic and heartfelt conversation about **neurodiversity, speaking confidence, perfectionism, and self-compassion**.

From the psychology of “flow” to the myth of perfection, Dr Matt reveals how neurodivergent people can thrive by embracing their natural communication style and curiosity. Together, they unpack how anxiety and imposter syndrome show up for creatives and speakers, how to manage overcommitment, and why we all need to **“be curious, not furious.”**

This fast-moving episode blends neuroscience, humour, and personal truth — reminding listeners that different brains bring extraordinary strengths when given space to speak, connect, and create.

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## 💡 Top Takeaways

* **Flow State = Freedom:** You reach flow when your skill and challenge meet. That’s where authentic speaking and creativity thrive.

* **Different Doesn’t Mean Broken:** Neurodivergent people often communicate or process ideas differently — and that’s where innovation lives.

* **Perfectionism Is Moving Goalposts:** If you keep changing the target, you’ll never feel enough. Instead, celebrate incremental progress.

* **Imposter Syndrome Is Universal:** Even experts feel it — the key is doing the work anyway.

* **Grace and Compassion:** On the days you only have 40% to give, giving all 40% *is* giving 100%.

* **Labels Aren’t Limits:** Identifying as ADHD, autistic, or gifted can empower you to understand and explain your needs, not box you in.

* **Curiosity Over Judgment:** Replace frustration with curiosity — about yourself and others.

* **Communication Is a Two-Way Street:** Listening, patience, and empathy allow everyone’s voice to be heard.

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## 🕒 Chapters & Timestamps

* **00:01** Welcome — accents, connection, and how speech patterns reveal thinking

* **01:16** Do neurodivergent people have an “accent”? The cadence of difference

* **02:08** Flow state, speaking naturally, and trusting your brain in the moment

* **05:32** Why anxiety means you care — and why nerves help performance

* **07:59** Perfectionism, imposter syndrome, and giving yourself grace

* **10:40** The 40% Rule: Giving what you can is enough

* **11:51** How to stop “moving the goalposts” on yourself

* **12:20** Balancing multiple roles: therapist, speaker, and human being

* **13:49** Learning to say no — sustainable leadership and energy management

* **14:50** Bottom-up thinking: progress over perfection

* **16:28** The pressure of personal branding and why humility matters

* **19:08** Why some of us “talk to think” — external processing as intelligence

* **22:58** Inclusion through metaphor: burrito bowls and neurodivergent design

* **25:29** Balancing inclusion and independence in education and workplaces

* **27:55** Labels, self-understanding, and the “zebra among horses” analogy

* **29:36** The double empathy problem — empathy looks different for every brain

* **31:35** Dr. Matt’s golden rule: “Be curious, not furious.”

* **33:17** Closing reflections — humanity, humour, and hope

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## 🗝️ Memorable Quotes

* “**Flow is when your skill and challenge meet.** That’s where your different brain shines.”

* “On the days you only have 40% to give, giving all 40% is giving 100%.”

* “If you don’t own your label, society will label you anyway.”

* “Different communication isn’t broken communication — it’s just built differently.”

* “**Be curious, not furious.** Most people are doing the best they can.”

* “There’s no perfect talk, podcast, or therapy session — just humans showing up.”

* “Perfectionism is just moving the goalposts further away.”

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## 🔧 Concepts & Frameworks

**1️⃣ Flow State:** The meeting point of challenge and skill — where time disappears.

**2️⃣ Bottom-Up Thinking:** Start from zero and celebrate progress instead of chasing 100%.

**3️⃣ The Zebra Metaphor:** You can’t thrive if you’re a zebra forced to live like a horse.

**4️⃣ Double Empathy Problem:** Different brains express empathy differently — both sides must learn to translate.

**5️⃣ Be Curious, Not Furious:** A mindset for compassion and emotional regulation.

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## 🧭 Practical Actions

1. **Pause Before Judgment:** Next time you feel frustration — ask, “What might be going on for them?”

2. **Grade Yourself on a Curve:** Some days 40% is enough. Let that count as success.

3. **Notice Flow Moments:** When do you lose track of time because you’re immersed? That’s your zone.

4. **Reframe Labels:** Define your neurodivergent identity before others do.

5. **Set Realistic Boundaries:** Practice saying no to protect your energy.

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## 🌐 Connect

**Guest – Dr Matt**

* 🌍 Website: [drmatt.com](#) *(example placeholder if actual site not provided)*

* 🎥 Instagram | TikTok | YouTube: **@DrMatt**

* 🧠 Clinical psychologist, international speaker, and advocate for neurodivergent inclusion

**Host – Melanie Suzanne Wilson**

* 💻 [TheMotivateCollective.com](https://www.themotivatecollective.com)

* 📱 @themotivatecollective

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## 📣 Call to Action

💬 What resonated with you most — “flow,” “zebra thinking,” or “be curious, not furious”?

Share your insight on social media and tag **@themotivatecollective** and **@DrMatt**.

🎧 Subscribe to *The Motivate Collective Podcast* on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

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## 🔍 SEO Keywords

neurodiversity podcast, Dr Matt, psychologist, ADHD speaker, autism inclusion, flow state psychology, perfectionism recovery, imposter syndrome help, neurodivergent communication, be curious not furious, workplace inclusion, emotional regulation, self-compassion, Melanie Suzanne Wilson, The Motivate Collective Podcast

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Dr. Matt, welcome to the Motivate Collective podcast. Thank you for being on the show.

Dr. Matt (00:07)

I am thrilled to be here. am. I'd be thrilled to be here even if you didn't have a spectacular accent, but you do. So it's even better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:16)

Awesome. I can tell you that having talked with Americans and also being a speaker, there's quite a D and a T, but the R's, you Americans are getting me to say R a bit more, sort of R.

Dr Matt (00:30)

And one of these days I'll figure out how to say no like you guys do, with like there's an extra like half a vowel in there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:37)

I don't know. Like that?

Dr Matt (00:40)

It's like N-O-O-E-R somehow, no. I lived in Coogee for six months, and I never figured out that part of it, but I'm a bit of an accent sponge, so I can't help myself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:59)

I'll ask about that in a moment, actually, because you work with neurodivergent things, and I'm curious. People say that neurodivergent people have an accent of their own. Do you think so?

Dr Matt (01:16)

It's it's definitely like there's like a particular cadence to how neurodiversion people talk, like we tend to be a little bit more like staccato, like I say this and then this and then this because my brain is uploading the words I'm wanting to say very quickly. Actually, know, know who Barack Obama is a great example of that like Barack Obama because he's like my fellow Americans. It's important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:40)

Really?

Dr Matt (01:46)

That in these difficult times, it's like, there's this sort of like, you can like feel his brain buffering to rather than someone who's like, I know everything I'm going to say and I'm going to say it because we're always sort of building the plane as we fly it. So as one of the reasons, I mean, you know, we're, we're both speakers, right? Like people will ask me, like, how do you know, how'd you know what you're saying? It was like, you think I knew what I was going to say? I'm just so plugged in. I'm like, let's do it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:08)

My goodness.

I have found my people. Okay, let's talk about that. I had no idea we were going to talk about speaking, but you talked about the accent, and it all flowed from there because I just say anything, and most people, I'm not judging this. I'm encouraging people to find their courage, but a lot of people will need to plan out what they are going to talk about when they are speaking to any group, and are you saying that there's something a bit neurodivergent about just talking and going for it and saying whatever words flow?

Dr Matt (02:52)

The keyword there is the word flow. Flow is a psychological state that we reach where the challenge level and our skill level meet. Right? So when people feel underwhelmed, their skill levels will be higher than the challenge. And when they feel overwhelmed, their challenge level is much higher than the skill. But if both of those things are aligned, then that's where we get flow state. So you could ask me to go give a talk on like

micro financial organisations and Micronesia, and I would fight my way through it. It wouldn't because that's a high challenge, low scale thing for me. But when I talk about neurodivergence, it's high challenge and high scale because, like, so time goes away and the idea that, like, you can be a good speaker and be neurotypical, because it's about transmitting information, and the information exchange can be done very well by anybody.

But I think to be a good speaker as a performer, that's where we get into letting your different brain fly. Right. And, you know, I've given almost a thousand talks all over the world and I can tell you hand to heart, like, I don't think I've ever given the same exact talk twice, even though I've got probably a dozen talks that people ask me to give over and over and over and over and over because the stories always change in the room always changes and you've got to be able to think on your feet and be in the moment. And that's why when I work with neurodivergent people that build social skills, it's not teaching them exactly what to say because people are inconsistent, right? They're not always gonna respond the way you think they're going to. It's teaching them how to listen, how to respond, how to be nimble. And the best speakers, right, Melanie, they're nimble. They can roll with the punches, they can think on their feet.

And the more we help model that for our clients and families and friends and coworkers, then we're making everybody a more adaptable, flexible group of humans.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:57)

Yes, definitely. The interesting thing about going with the flow when you present is that you are, I think that we are skipping a lot of the internal dialogue and just going for it, which is ironic because often when we are a bit extra quirky, we can be very anxious in the rest of life. But I'm wondering maybe it's

Dr Matt (05:20)

What?

me? No, come on. What?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:25)

Maybe not you! Okay, you're totally fine, never anxious.

Dr. Matt (05:27)

I'm the only

one. Yes, I'm the only one who doesn't get nervous.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:32)

ever in life. Look, this is, then we have the guru in not being nervous or anxious ever. That's good.

Dr Matt (05:40)

My gosh, yes. I mean, I always tell people, like, if I stop being anxious about giving talks, I'm going to stop doing them because anxious means I care. Right. I was anxious not only because I was running late, but I was like, I'm always anxious to be on a podcast because like I value you and what you do, and I want to show up as the best version of me. You know, and there's still that imposter syndrome piece of like.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:54)

Really?

Dr Matt (06:03)

It shouldn't be me, there's like so many better people. But here I am and here you are and we're doing a pretty darn good job, I think.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:10)

We are, and that is insight for me because I am amazed by the guests I have been getting. I mean, you are such an expert and the others on this show. And every time I think, Why is this person talking to me? Which is so odd because I grew up surrounded by people who had titles applied to what they did just because they did what they loved. But then I don't.

So I think that the imposter syndrome can happen to all of us. And it's really nice to just, I think maybe what we do, maybe it's a neurodiverse thing, maybe it's just being different, but we simply do things anyway.

Dr Matt (06:59)

You know, and I think it's really, it's like, as much as we'd love to do it, over prepared, overcompensated, over rested, like most of the time you've got to do it under prepared, under compensated, under rested. Like, but the thing is, is like, there is no perfect talk. Like, there's no perfect podcast. Like, there's no perfect therapy session.

Like you just, it's like really, it's like you show up, you do the best you can, you train, learn from the stuff that didn't go well. And then you try and do a little bit better next time. And like, I actually was just talking about this at the conference I'm at right now. I have a, I have a recording of the very first webinar I ever did back in 2017. And I'm telling you, it's awful. It's the equivalent of someone reading like the poetry you wrote in middle school out loud. It's really bad.

But like, cringy and terrible and hard to watch as it is, I can also see in there the glimmers of the speaker I am becoming and have become and will continue to be. Right? Like, there's good stuff in there. But the thing is, it's like you have to start. Like so many gifted kids I work with are neurodivergent kids. They're like, how do I know someone's going to be my friend? I want to know they're going to be my friend before I talk to them, so I don't risk being embarrassed or hurt. I'm like, yeah, man, wouldn't that be great if life worked that way? It doesn't.

You know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:37)

Do find that about being a speaker as well that some people will have whatever opinions about what you are saying or how you are saying it, and you'll change some lives, and some people will be distracted by life, whatever, but you're just doing what you do, and the result is whatever it is meant to be.

Dr Matt (09:00)

You know, and, and I think a big part of that is, is giving yourself permission to grade yourself on a scale. Right. I was on a podcast back in March, back in March. And I just, I, I woke up with a nasty cold. I like, I was trying not to throw up, like, and I'm on this podcast, and she's like, so what do you think of this? was like, yeah, it's really, it's a good question. Like I sound like I'm underwater.

And I like actually email there when the episode posted, was like, listen, I, I think it's great. You post it. I sound terrible. I don't feel sick. I didn't, I couldn't tell. Like I thought, you did a great job. And it's like, I did a damn good job for functioning at about 25 % of my normal capacity. But I think when you're neurodivergent, part of that is understanding, like for all the parts that it feels like we'll never reach a hundred per cent of our capacity.

There are parts of our lives that, like 25 % of our best, is a lot of hundred people's, a hundred per cent of their best, right? Like I work with a kiddo, he's an incredibly gifted musician. And he's the kind of kid who can pick up an instrument and figure it out and play it. And he's like, Oh, my violin playing sucks. I was like, you picked up the violin yesterday.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:07)

What do you mean?

Dr Matt (10:26)

And you're violent playing that giant air quotes sucks is better than 90 % of the population. And you've been playing it for less than 24 hours.

So it's.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:39)

That happens.

Dr Matt (10:40)

It's like, on the days you only have 40 % capacity to give, giving all the 40 % capacity is giving 100%. You can only give what you have.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:54)

I think that is empowering to everybody, and what we are doing is busting the perfectionism.

Dr Matt (11:01)

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's like I call my talk on perfectionism, how to stop moving the goalposts. Because, you know, if you're playing, if you're on the rugby pitch and like you're trying to get that try and someone keeps moving the, you know, the end zone further and further, further, you'll never score. And you're just gonna get exhausted and miserable and unhappy and be like, Why am I failing? Is it that you're failing, or is it that people are changing the rules?

And like we can't necessarily change if your partner, your boss, your best friend, or Sydney International Airport changes the rules on you. There's always so much you can do about that. But when it comes to setting our own rules, we've got to give ourselves a lot more grace and patience.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:51)

We do. We need to have compassion for ourselves.

And also, we need to forgive ourselves for rushing through a busy day. I'll ask about that because sometimes it's great to just talk about the realities we are in, and you are at a conference, you do a lot of talking, you also, what work do you do the rest of the time when you're not presenting to audiences?

Dr Matt (12:20)

So I'm a full-time clinical psychologist. And speaking was like a thing I did a little bit, and then it became my other full-time job. So, because my practice is totally virtual, I can be somewhere and see clients. And my clients are pretty used to be like, where are you now? Like, I'm in Mississippi, or I'm in Canada, or I'm in, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:42)

Okay.

Dr Matt (12:46)

Northern California, or I'm in my basement, which is where my office is back in New Jersey. You know, and it's, it's funny because he, it's a constant juggling, and my brain that needs to feel really engaged likes that part. It likes the constant moving the parts and the chess pieces around the board. But I'll be the first to tell you it's exhausting. It would be really easy to do one or the other of these two things. But my brain likes to do a lot of different things, and it scratches two very different edges for me. like, you know, I just I try and make sure I'm living in a in a space that honours both of those and I show up as the best I can in both of those places.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:33)

Definitely. Did you find that with the personality that you have, do you find yourself not necessarily over-committing, but just wanting to do a lot and needing to find the limit in that?

Dr Matt (13:49)

Oh, it's definitely over-committing. I think let's call it what it is. Right. Cause like that perfectionism and that imposter syndrome go hand in hand. Right. If I am the perfect speaker and therapist and author and husband and father and friend and, and, and then everyone will love you. Right. That's, that's really the, that's the psychology behind it. So like, I, you know, I've had to work a lot professionally at saying no.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:52)

I can't.

Dr Matt (14:15)

You know, and like I hired other people for my practice. So I don't take on every client and work 70-hour weeks. That's not sustainable. I don't show up as the best version of me for my clients. If I'm. Dragged down into the dirt, right? So I'm like, listen, I have good people on my team to take some people from me to take new clients. And then as my speaking career has progressed, I've stopped saying yes to every speaking thing that comes my way. It's like the old line, like if you've got too much work to do.

If you're too busy at work, you're not charging enough. And it's like, huh, okay. Right. Because that's the, if that's what it costs to buy that peace of mind, then like we all have to practice that. Like, listen, I'll be the first to tell you it's easier said than done. I struggle with it all the time, but the way we push back on that perfectionism is by doing what I call bottom-up thinking rather than top-down thinking. Top-down thinking is I've got to be perfect or else I have to get 100 % on this test. Bottom-up thinking is the default of me doing anything is zero. I don't get out of bed today. I don't go for any run today. I don't record any podcast today. I don't see any therapy clients today. I write no words on my book today. If you one word, it's a lot more than zero. Right?

And then the idea is like, becomes cumulative and aspirational rather than like the first thing you see is the mistake. Right. And that's, that is like many therapists. I have to practice what I preach, but it's been helpful to me and like reorganising how I feel about my own stuff. Cause then yeah, I show up as just as a much better version of me when I do that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:07)

Yes. Do you think that, along with being different and holding ourselves to our standard instead of you, are doing more than what the average person will do, on top of that, do you find that in this day and age of personal branding, there's an extra layer of expectation?

Dr Matt (16:28)

Yeah, definitely. And it's a huge source of frustration for me because, you know, I don't want to make tech talks. Like, I don't want to put out like branded Dr Matt content. Like, you know, and the people like, you've got to have classes, you've got to lead retreats. And I'm like, I want to be an above-average therapist, and I want to be an above-average speaker. And like, if I don't have like merch, I can, my head will sleep just fine when it's the pillow tonight. But because honestly, I think it's dangerous when any client-facing work becomes about a cult of personality, right? Like, I'm an above-average psychotherapist. I'm good at my job, but I'm not; I don't do anything. I don't have any magical therapy that nobody else doesn't have. If I have a superpower, it's how to connect with people. It's connecting with neurodivergent clients because I am neurodivergent and I'm good at connecting with them, right? But parents will call me like, You're the only person who can help my kid. I'm like, that's not true.

In fact, it shouldn't be true, right? But there are a lot of people out there, you know, who are, who are leaning the other direction. Like, yes, I, I alone will fix your depression. I alone will fix your autism. And it's just like, come on, y'all. Like that's not, that's not actually working for anybody. But by the time you notice that you've given that person $2,000 and you haven't gotten any better, you know, I mean,

I think the thing that parenting, teaching, and therapy all have in common is that it's work that's fundamentally driven by humility.

You've got to be humble if you're going to do this work. And that just doesn't like a lot of people forget the order of operations there. And it's like, my clients are so lucky to have me as a therapist. No, I'm lucky to have them as clients. I am so flattered and honoured. Anytime someone's like, Yes, come talk to me. I'm like, you want to pay me to say words. I have many high school teachers who would have, who would have paid me to shut up at some point like this. Are you sure?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:49)

Yeah, I can relate to that. Well, maybe not school, but outside of

Dr Matt (18:50)

I'm, I somehow I can tell you, my gosh.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:57)

Is there actually something about us, different people, where we sort of become that annoyingly overly talkative one?

Dr Matt (19:08)

You know, and it's.

Talking can serve many needs, right? And it can be a way of managing anxiety. It can be a way of connecting. It can be a way of processing. know, a lot of people I work with are like their external processors. So they're just like, okay, hold on. Here's what I think about this. I'm getting my words together. And if you rush that person, they'll never say anything. But if you know they're thinking as they talk, then a great thing is like the next around the next bend, but you've got to be patient enough to get there because you know, once again, it's that nimbleness, right? Like you may not know what you're going to say before you say it, but there's a good, there's good content in there and you hopefully have developed the skills to access that content effectively, you know? And I think that's why so many neurodivergent people struggle in like emotional arguments, like with their partners, because it's like, hold on, I'm trying to find my words and put them together. And it always feels like they, well, like how come you have exhibits and PowerPoints? like, why do you have like, why do you have experts on call? And like, I didn't know we were having this argument until 30 seconds ago. Slow down, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:25)

Right, right. People have experts on call. Yes, they do. Yes, I think that it can go in either direction. Let me know if this is spot on. Some people will either freeze up and they are trying to pick the ideal words, or then there are those of us who will just talk and talk and talk, trying to piece a puzzle together. Does that happen in other people?

Dr Matt (20:54)

I mean, it at least happens to me. There's at least two of us, but I know there's a lot more. And, the problem is that schools and businesses and a lot of public spaces aren't built to deal with that kind of thinking, processing, feeling. So what ends up happening is you end up yelling or blaming at the person. Right? So, like you'll say to that person, like, stop talking. And the person realises.

It gets the message, whether it's intentionally or unintentionally, that there's something wrong with them, that they're broken somehow. And then you internalise that and you take it to the bank, right? It's like, I guess I suck. And, you know, and then that person shuts up or become, or their flame dims a little bit. And like, not everybody should be able to talk all the time. Like, that's not what I'm saying, but we have to honour different styles of communication. And the problem is, is the world is built for and by neurotypical people. 80 % of the world is neurotypical, right? So it makes sense that the communication structures and systems and patterns ape a neurotypical mindset. That absolutely makes sense to me.

But the metaphor I usually use for this is like, Melanie, if we were coming to your house for a dinner party, what would you cook?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:29)

Am I saying now what I would cook?

Dr Matt (22:31)

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, tell me what you'd got.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:35)

Okay, if it was a lot of people, would, because I prefer plants and veg, generally I would go with big burrito bowls, put it together yourself. So, a bean thing and a whole lot of salad and some guacamole, things like that, and people can assemble their own thing.

Dr Matt (22:58)

Love it, right? And that sounds great as a dinner party. I love that. You're helping our veggie friends and our vegan friends. But let's say I bring my wife and my wife brings her sister and her, my sister is gluten, my sister-in-law is gluten-free. You gotta throw all those burrito bowls away because my sister-in-law is gluten-free.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:24)

I think the burrito bowls would be gluten-free anyway, but I see your point.

Dr Matt (23:32)

Right? And that's the thing. mean, you know, it's funny because usually people say like, I cook some sort of meat like chicken or fish or beef or something. And then it's like, well, what about my friends? We're vegetarian. Like you made it harder for me, but I think we still got the point across. It's like, we're not saying everybody in the world has to adapt to us, but we are saying, please leave some room on the table for the things that we need to do. They're where you shove the best version of us. Because that to me is, I mean, that's, that's how we enrich the entire human experience, is that more people have more seats at the table and more turns to talk.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:10)

Well, that's why I picked those foods, actually, because I'm actually now seeing a parallel between being meat-free and gluten-free and not free. A parallel between that and being neurodiverse, because you're saying just build the world in a way that fits both. Because I've been to some community things recently where the simple solution, someone brought a tub of hummus.

Or there would be guac one week or whatever it might be, or some chia puddings. And it was just whatever food. I mean, often there are those plates of the vegetable sticks, and veggies are, you know, everybody wants the carrot sticks to pretend they're being healthy for a few minutes. So that's just anyone. But why, I'm sorry, I think we'll need to talk about it for a while later, how the schools and the workplaces need to be built in a way that can truly include people who are different because right now, at least over here, I'm seeing that separate schools are needed simply for people who are different enough to even have somewhere they can function and learn and grow. It's very separate.

Dr Matt (25:29)

Yeah. And you know, there's always going to be a tension between specific environments and inclusion, right? I mean, I want people to have places where they can retreat and be the best version of themselves, but we also can't silo off parts of society, right? It's a dangerous balance. Well, it's a dangerous thing to consider, and it's a tricky balance. You know, I mean, as a kid, I grew up going to, you know, a summer camp for gifted kids. And that was three weeks of summer where I could be the most authentic version of myself, was no masking involved in that. And then I went home, and I had to be closer to what society needed me to be. And I'm not saying one is good and one is bad, right? Cause you know, we ultimately we all need to figure out how to get along with each other. Like there's 8.3 billion of us on this planet, but we don't have neurodivergent countries and neurotypical countries. We have, you know, like, that's why I always say like, you know, if 80 % of the world is neurotypical and 20 % of the world is neurodivergent, we are all going to keep running into each other, right? Like we don't get to cordon ourselves off. So like, if you have a colleague who's autistic, you're going to have to find a way to manage a relationship with that person. Just like, when I talk to parents in the pickup line at school who aren't neurodivergent, it is on me to do what I can to meet them in the middle and talk about the things that they want to talk about, if for no other reason to go along to get along. But hopefully I can find relationships and comrades and confidants in those things rather than just saying, well, you're not like me, so I don't talk to you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:18)

seeing another parallel of how we identify. Just like I don't always want to come out as being a particular dietary type. I also don't always want to come out as being neuro anything, because I always worried about being boxed in and people saying you are like this because you have this label. What do you think about people either outwardly identifying as some of these things or just trying to say I'm different, I don't want to label, but let's see what we can do.

Dr Matt (27:55)

You know, parents ask me that all the time. They'll say like, well, I don't want my kid to be labelled. And so we have this expression.

I don't know if you guys have it. So like, if you hear hooves, hoofbeats in the distance, it makes sense to think it's a horse, not a zebra. Right? Because horses and zebras look very similar, right? And they sound very similar, but horses and zebras need different things to survive. The problem is that a lot of kids are walking around that are actually zebras, but who've been forced to sit in a horse trough.

Like they're doing what horses do, right? So you can't name, you can't name you. If you don't name yourself as a zebra, you're going to, you're not going to have all your needs met. You're going to wonder why you're struggling, right? But because horses need different things and zebras need different things. So it really, to me, like,

I think that if you don't own your own labels, if you don't put a hand on that steering wheel and get proactive about it, society will label you anyway, whether you want to or not. Right? Because I was identified gifted in grade two and I was diagnosed with ADHD in high school.

And those labels have been good and bad, right? There's pros and cons to them. But before I got the label of ADHD as well, society gave me labels like scatterbrained and doesn't work to his potential and space cadet. So like, that's the thing. If you don't...

You don't have to embrace every label given to you, but having those labels allows you to create an internal counter-narrative over what other people will tell you. Like the concept in the autistic community of the 'dumbbell' empathy problem. For a long time, autistic people had a lot of people saying to them, You're autistic, you don't have empathy.

And it's like, no, that's a sociopath, right? Sociopaths are a different thing. Autistic people have a different kind of empathy. They experience empathy in a different way. And the idea of the double empathy problem is that you might be expressing empathy to me one way and I'm expressing empathy back to you in a different way, but because they're different, they're like ships passing in the night. You know, I show up with, I'm here to sit with you and listen. That's how I'm showing empathy. And you're like, how come you're not doing anything about it, Dr Matt?

But I'm like, but I did, I showed up, listened, did, words, ears, I was here. But if you're expecting support looks like flowers, chocolates, and an all-expense-paid trip to Fiji, well, you're going to be disappointed. And I'm going to feel frustrated because I thought I helped. Right. So that's, mean, those communicative patterns have to come from a place of understanding.

And if we don't understand ourselves, it's going to be real hard to help other people understand us.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:17)

We need to understand ourselves and explain to the world how we function and figure out a way to connect with other people. There's a lot to unpack with that. I'm hoping we can do a part two of this talk soon.

Dr. Matt (31:35)

Absolutely,

I would love to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:40)

Great, great. So, before part two, is there one particular lesson everybody should keep in mind for their upcoming week to help to understand themselves and everybody else?

Dr Matt (31:57)

So when I still everything I do into one sentence, that sentence is be curious, not furious.

Right. Because most of the time, people are doing as well as they can in as many things as they can. They're overwhelmed. They're overworked. So if I'm like, gosh, like when I was running late before, right? Like you'd be like, Matt's not taking this seriously. Dr Matt is a jerk. That's getting furious. And when you first you close off mentally and emotionally, right? That's all I'm going to think about that. He sucks the end. If you're, I wonder what's going on. I appreciate that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:32)

Never thought that, by the way.

Dr Matt (32:36)

I wouldn't have blamed you if you did, though. But if you're curious, you're like, okay, I wonder what's going on. And maybe the answer is that I didn't take it seriously, and I was blowing you off. But there are much more likely explanations, things like I was stuck in traffic and my day ran long and, and, and, and, and, right? So I just think that, like, it is so easy to get angry, and I get it. As a human being, I understand that emotion, but before we get furious, let's try to be curious because 99 % of the time, that's a much better, kinder answer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:11)

That's a slogan that I wish I had learned decades ago.

Dr Matt (33:17)

Yeah, I speak in bumper stickers, unfortunately, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:21)

Yes, but we need more bumper stickers. Look, thank you so much for this much wisdom, and I've honestly learned from every sentence. So thank you, and I look forward to talking again soon.

Dr Matt (33:35)

I can't wait. Yes, and thank you for having me. And seriously, you are an incredible host. Was, I mean, this talk about flow state, I looked at it, was like, how have we been talking this long? It feels like we've been talking for two minutes. Hopefully, the listeners enjoy us as much as we enjoy ourselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:51)

They will and will set aside an hour and a half for later sometime. Whenever you're ready. See you later. Bye.

Dr Matt (33:56)

Love it. Let's do it. Yes. Cheers.