Podcast Episode: Dr. Angela Genoni, Gut Health Expert

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

We have the honor today of talking to Dr. Angela Gennoni, the gut health expert in Perth in Australia. Dr. Angela, thank you so much for being on the show.

Dr Angela Genoni (00:17)

Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:19)

Let's start with how did you get into gut health?

Dr Angela Genoni (00:23)

This is a great story. I like telling this one because ⁓ I got into gut health a little bit by accident actually because I was planning to go back to uni after I had my kids to do postgraduate study and I did a small project for an honours degree and one of the findings from that honours degree was that my participants were suffering some gut issues so my supervisor suggested, why don't you look at the gut for your PhD.

And I was a little bit apprehensive, actually, because I knew that it meant that I'd be in the lab with poop samples for a few years. So I said yes. And actually, it's been hands down one of the best things I've ever done in my life. Yes, slightly by accident, but I've enjoyed every minute of it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:13)

Poop samples for a few years. That's perspective because gut health has become a trending topic for a few years. People talk about it. We're all wondering how we can look after our gut and our overall health. But for those who don't know, why is the poop sample so important?

Dr Angela Genoni (01:15)

Yes.

So the only way we can really tell what your gut microbiome is doing is by looking at what we poop out because the majority of what we actually poop out is the bacteria that live in our colon. And the best way to get a picture of what's happening in there is to take all those little bacteria from your poop and sequence the DNA so we know which ones are there and what they're doing.

And that is the best way, that is really the only way we have to do that. So when people talk about gut health and gut microbiome, you must think about and feel sorry for all the scientists that have gone before with poop in the lab.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:19)

Fair enough.

Hopefully, a lot of people will be able to understand their gut health a little bit without having to have their poop tested. Can people learn a bit before reaching that point?

Dr Angela Genoni (02:35)

Yeah, in fact, I don't usually recommend testing myself. I would only recommend clients do it if we've ruled out a lot of other things first, and then we still can't get to the bottom of it with diet. The thing with microbiome testing is that it's very expensive for the consumer to do it. Like it's really cool science, but it's very expensive. And you might be looking at, you know, around $500 for an accurate test of what's in your gut. So it's quite interesting if you've got the money and you want to do that, but the treatments are usually very similar for different circumstances. So that's why I don't normally go down that path unless absolutely necessary, because we can make a lot of improvements in your gut just through making some dietary changes. And those dietary changes are very

quickly noticeable with how you're feeling, and that's the main outcome, is how you're feeling, how you're sleeping, are you feeling energised, can you perform well at work, you know, all of those things that go along with having a healthy gut.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:48)

Are you saying that someone's energy and ability to sleep can be influenced by the gut?

Dr Angela Genoni (03:54)

Absolutely. That's your the we know, I mean, the gut-brain axis has become very popular and quite trending, but your gut is quite intricately linked with just about every other part of your body. So, yes, your mood and things to do with how, you know, clear-headed and productive you might feel are definitely related to your gut and vice versa. The communication goes both ways, but also things like ⁓

inflammation, your ⁓ ability to have immune protection, your bone health, your cardiovascular disease risk, they're all linked quite closely with the health of your gut.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:38)

Is the gut health mostly or entirely about what we eat, and to what extent is it affected by other things like stress?

Dr Angela Genoni (04:47)

So the research is quite clear that diet is the biggest driver of your gut microbiome composition. So a lot of people get caught up and only focus on the diet. But, and I say a big but here because there's many other things that also influence the gut. And when I work with clients, I think some of those other things are actually just as important as your diet because they influence that gut-brain communication as well. So, things like exercise, ⁓ being out in nature, social connections, your environment. We can't underestimate the role of some of those things, even though they might not influence your gut directly sometimes; they indirectly influence your gut. And the whole, all of our body systems are so intricately linked that if we get so caught up on our diet and we're so anxious about what we're eating,

then actually we're doing ourselves a disservice in many other areas of our life. So I'm very focused on having a bit more of a four-pillared approach, which encompasses the other aspects that influence your gut health as well as diet.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:59)

the other pillars as well as the diet. So as much as the environment and our social life can influence it, it sounds like people need to know more about what they do need to

Dr Angela Genoni (06:02)

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:13)

For those who are wondering what they can eat to improve their gut, I'm hoping you can bust a few myths here because we see the word fibre on packaging for something that might not be an actual whole food, and people might not have heard about the importance of diverse plants. I'm asking you from the background of being a vegan, but respecting those people who aren't, but I'm wondering what do people need to know about what to eat?

Dr Angela Genoni (06:39)

Yep.

Okay, so this is where people can very easily get caught up, and people get quite feisty when it comes to diets. And we do need to be, you know, respectful, like you said, that people are on their own journey when it comes to diets. So the first thing is we need to empower ourselves to make choices that are right for our bodies and not get caught up listening to what social media tells us to do. And secondly, fibre is one word, right? But it actually is

several hundred compounds that make up that, that fall under that definition of fibre. So when we think about fibre, we see it on a label, we might think, it's just one type of food, you know, an ingredient or a component that's within the food. And no, there's so many different types of fibre. And the thing we need to stop and remember is that each one of those types of fibre

is the preferred food for different types of bacteria in our gut. So if we want to have a diverse gut microbiome, which is what we're aiming for, we need to have a diverse range of fibre in our diet. And that means we need to eat a diverse range of plants. So it doesn't matter what that diversity looks like for you in terms of how you structure that, as long as you include a good amount of plant foods and that every meal has a good amount of plants. And whether you structure your breakfast with more grain-type foods or you have more fruits and then have more vegetables during the latter part of the day, it doesn't matter. Just switch it up. ⁓ Give your gut some variety every now and again. Choose some different colours now and again. Try something new now and again, but make sure it's lots of plants.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:40)

Lots of plants. You agree with the eat the rainbow idea.

Dr Angela Genoni (08:41)

Yep.

Absolutely, and I have an education program which I run, and inside that program, we talk a bit about so fibre is one thing that feeds the microbiome but there's other factors in food that can also influence the populations in our gut, and those are things like polyphenols, like the colourful parts of our food products, because

They don't directly provide food for the bacteria in there, but they do modify the populations, and they're important. They're an important player in the ecosystem in general. So we do need to make sure we have a broad range of colors as well, because those polyphenol compounds are quite significant in terms of helping the good guys thrive in that ecosystem, and what we want is those good guys to be thriving and healthy so they can produce lots of the byproducts that make us healthy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:44)

Absolutely. The polyphenols, is that as simple as a colored fruit or vegetable like getting the bright orange carrots, pumpkins, and the fruits, the blueberries, the strawberries, is it as simple as that?

Dr Angela Genoni (09:53)

Yes. Yep.

Yeah, it definitely is. Again, polyphenols is one word. But if you look at the chemical composition chart, there's hundreds of different compounds that fall under that definition. And, you know, like we just said before about fiber polyphenol, each one of those types of polyphenols can have differing effects inside that gut environment. So eating a diverse range of those colors is a good idea because each of them can have separate

and quite beneficial effects to help support the populations of the beneficial bacteria that live in there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:39)

Amazing. Really curious. To what extent would you tell people to focus on the raw or the completely fresh foods? And to what extent are you all right with things like some frozen vegetables and fruits? So, where do you draw the line on fresh and not-so-fresh?

Dr Angela Genoni (10:58)

So the good thing to remember with fruits and vegetables, the fibre stays there. So if you eat them raw or if you cook it or if you eat it frozen, the fibre is still there. It's still the same. It doesn't go away. They might change in water composition because you've cooked it or you've frozen it, but the fibre is still there. So if you want to eat fresh, like raw,

Go for it if you cook them; if you prefer them cooked, that's absolutely fine. I think I don't love it when I see people getting ⁓ upset with each other for cooking versus eating them raw, because at the end of the day, we all just need to eat the vegetables like we just need more vegetables, and we just need more fruit. It doesn't really matter how we get them. We just need to be eating them. The only caveat on that is that if you are juicing, then you can be losing the fibre because obviously, the pulp that you get left with is actually the bit that your gut bacteria want to be eating. If you want to make it into some kind of drink, then a smoothie is preferable because the fibre stays in the drink rather than being thrown away.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:16)

That's important for people to remember because so often it's assumed that a bottle of juice from the supermarket or a trendy juice when going out will be the healthy option. But are you saying that it won't have as much of a health benefit as just having a smoothie or the original whole food?

Dr Angela Genoni (12:39)

Yeah

Yeah, exactly. And look, juices do have a place. I'm not anti-juice at all, because, you know, sometimes I mean, they still got the polyphenols in there, for example, you still get the color, and it's still some fluid. So it's not all bad to have juice every now and again, especially if it's fresh juice. But if you are needing to increase your fiber, which most people are, it is better to eat the whole fruit or vegetable.

and or have a smoothie where you've blended up, so the fibre is still in the drink itself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:13)

That's really encouraging because I think that when we know there's less fibre, we can start going to the extremes. And it sounds like having something at all as a start, even if some things are better. wanted to zoom in on some different lifestyles and what's needed. I saw on your website that you support corporates and their busy lifestyles.

Dr Angela Genoni (13:25)

Yeah.

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:38)

That issue of trying to look after ourselves during a busy lifestyle has come up a lot, and people are feeling time-poor. I wonder if you've seen people feeling more time poor than ever, and is that the main issue, and are there other concerns that the corporates are having, and what have you been recommending to

Dr Angela Genoni (14:00)

think the diet, the way we've done diets in the past, is probably erring on the side of being a bit too extreme. And nutrition culture has been to give people a meal plan or a very strict diet to follow. And then people get hard on themselves during the week when they can't stick to those things because let's face it, life is really busy, and ⁓ I'm living that challenge with you. I've got three teenage boys and...

I run a house on my own. So I know what it's like, and we have to be more sustainable with the way that we make changes, and we do nutrition to people, because telling people or throwing advice at people without helping them understand the why and the how and what's happening inside their body actually makes people feel deflated.

and down on themselves before they've even got to the part where they're feeling better. And I think we need to flip it around a little bit and help empower people, help them want to nurture their body, and help them focus on looking after themselves for the right reasons, know, for something inside their heart rather than because we told them to. So those issues are quite big when it comes to people with like a corporate job and then

When I do do corporate work, also do from a leadership perspective, encourage the leaders to walk the walk. If you want your staff to be healthy, you have to be the one to model the behaviors that encourage that and support that behavior.

So, making sure that you take your time for exercise, that you go home early and spend some time with your family, because those things make people whole. And we can't forget that bit. We're all human, and we all need to live and have our lives outside of work. So if we have a happy balance, then everybody wins.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:05)

It sounds like the happy, balanced life is a part of a happy God and a happy health.

Dr Angela Genoni (16:10)

And exactly, and I talk about that in my book a bit, actually, because we can't hone in on the diet and get so hung up on little bits of food ingredients without considering the bigger picture, because doing that just misses the point completely of all the other science in all the other areas of your life. So what's the point of worrying about that one thing?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:39)

Want to really check what happens when leaders don't look after themselves I know that's a momentary look at the diamond gloom but I think people need a reality check.

Dr Angela Genoni (16:51)

Yeah, I think it's very easy, particularly when you've got staff or even like when you're a parent, you know how you feel when you're a bit on edge, you're tired, you've been working too hard, perhaps you're not sleeping well. We all know we get a bit irritable at that point. And so, how good are we going to be doing at our job if we're feeling that way?

And how good are we going to be leading staff if we're already feeling a bit grumpy when we get to the office in the morning? So we can't expect ourselves to keep showing up and performing, whether we're a leader or whether we're a parent or whether we're anything in life, unless we look after ourselves. And once you start that process of feeling better, you can look back with a bit of hindsight and go, ⁓ actually, yeah, I feel...

I'm doing a better job now, I'm showing up a bit more, you know, as the person that I want to be rather than just surviving.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:53)

You went back to parents again and that's worth exploring because parents have such an influence over their children, over the schools and the communities they are in. So what can parents do? And I'm really keen to ask. So you have three teenagers and you're doing this amazing work. How do you keep your life healthy with all that happening?

Dr Angela Genoni (18:19)

That's a good question. ⁓ I am very busy, and I am a high achiever, and I know that. But I think the health factors for me are just non-negotiable. I don't feel good unless I've exercised. I don't feel good unless I've had enough sleep. And I know that I'm a nice parent and I'm a nice partner if I do those things. And so it's kind of...

It's in my non-negotiables to do those. So I do prioritise them. And sometimes that means I do get, feel like I've got a bit of a backlog of work to do, but I feel good when I'm doing that. So it just has to get done, and it gets done before I do a lot of other things because it's important. So I do make time to do those things, which are to cook dinner and to have dinner with my kids every night.

to exercise most days. So those things are just important to do and important to model for my kids to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:20)

It sounds like you know you're going to be creating more value for your work and your kids when you are prioritizing those.

Dr Angela Genoni (19:28)

Yeah,

and I think sometimes it's a bit of false economy to say that you don't have time because you take a break to go and do some exercise and you know the exercise might take you 40 minutes and then a shower so it might be an hour say out of your day but you think about how much fresher in your your brain you feel after you've done that.

And then your productivity is probably 20, 30 % better for the few hours after you had that exercise session. In some ways, it's really easy to say, I don't have time to do it. But in fact, once you've been out and you've done it, you get more done. I look, I always look at it that way. And sometimes I have make time to have a, I work at home a lot. So sometimes I make time to have a meditation in the afternoon because I know that I feel more fresh and I can do more after I've done that. It's all about knowing what works for each person.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:32)

Mindfulness makes such a difference. And have you found that the little micro habits like the five or 10-minute options are effective, whether it's the five-minute recipe or the 10-minute meditation? Have you found that that's helping people just as much?

Dr Angela Genoni (20:51)

Yeah, absolutely. I do also one of the four pillars of gut health is the lifestyle components. And particularly for people that are struggling with their gut or people with IBS, we know that mindfulness and relaxation can help calm that gut-brain chatter. And it can help just calm things down, just taking 10 minutes.

Whether it's breathing exercises, meditation, or a little bit of exercise, it can really help calm that system down. And then that goes hand in hand with some dietary changes. Then, and then it's not just your gut that feels better, then it's all of you that starts to feel better. So you might start this process for a gut reason, but you end up feeling better as a person as a result, because you've made a few little changes that have had progressive and impactful changes in your life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:55)

I'll definitely explore the topic of families more in a moment, but as much as I completely align with what you're saying about how we can just simply feel better, and it's that straightforward, there will be some audiences out there who love to have something measurable. And I know your website mentioned something about reducing absenteeism for those who need something measured. How is the gut health going to improve things?

Dr Angela Genoni (22:12)

Mm.

So this is where it's really like gut, everyone's interested in gut health. So it's a good way to engage people because it's just an area of strong interest. So that's a good way to get people on board. But talking about gut health is for me, is a way of helping people learn to have confidence with their body by understanding it a bit better from the inside and out.

So if you know a bit more detail about how your digestive system functions and what the gut microbiome is, where it lives, how it works, what foods it needs to have, then making choices for yourself becomes a bit easier and a bit more empowering. And then once you start implementing a few small sustainable changes in your diet, and you start feeling better, you start sleeping better, then even things like your immune function can improve, if your mood improves, your productivity is also likely to improve, and all of those things go hand in hand. And then if it's also being modelled down by leadership, then we've got leaders that are inspiring, staff that are happy, and a bit healthier.

Then they're less likely to get sick. And it's kind of it's a win-win from both angles.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:00)

They're less likely to get sick. And you mentioned how people can feel more confident about their bodies when they're looking after themselves. That could possibly help people's personal brands and their career progression. Have you seen that happening where people feel more confident in their image and how they present to the world?

Dr Angela Genoni (24:23)

Absolutely. I, I, the first sort of half of my book, I actually talk about that the most because I, I think it's the most important part of that journey of focusing on yourself, and like, where do you want to be in five years? Does your current health support you doing that? And if the answer to that is no, what do we do to get you there? And let's make it a

positive thing rather than telling you you have to lose five kilos, let's make it something positive, like I want to be fit enough to go and hike in Peru next year. Those things are hugely positive goals rather than the restriction that comes with superficial outcomes like losing weight and flipping your mindset around about that can really be very empowering, and then combined with some dietary changes, which are gut-focused, can build people up instead of making them feel down.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:26)

Absolutely, the goals that are meaningful in life, and isn't it great when people end up losing weight when it's not their primary goal, and then it's an added bonus.

Dr Angela Genoni (25:39)

And that's where it becomes easy then, because they've kind of forgotten about it because they're busy living their life, focusing on things that are actually meaningful for their soul. And then the weight loss happens, then by accident, when they were trying for five years to lose two kilos before that. And when you stop and have your attention focused in the right place for the right reason, then one, it's easier to get to that goal, and two, good things happen on the journey.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:14)

They do. You are freeing people and freeing people's mindset and the focus. So they have more freedom to think about other things and to let go of the obsession. think you would have seen, of course, that decades ago, in particular, there were so many diets over the years, or even people exercising to lose weight, all these things. And

Dr Angela Genoni (26:29)

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:43)

It sounds like what you've seen is some people became tethered throughout the day, and it's controlling how they live lives.

Dr Angela Genoni (26:52)

Yes, and during my PhD, actually, I studied low-carb diets for my PhD, and I saw a lot of people that were very extreme with the way that they did their diets to the point where they would not go out for dinner with their friends because they weren't sure they could get a meal that was going to be accommodated. And missing out on life because of your thoughts around your diet, I think misses the point of food, and one I love. I love Italy, and I've been to Italy several times in the last few years, but one thing that I love about Italian culture is the celebration of food. It's food is love, food is family, food is sharing time together. It's not all calories, and

like we sort of get caught up here, it's more than that. It's part of their embedded in their way of loving each other. And I think we lost that somewhere along the way. And we kind of need to bring a bit of that back and forget about the details and go back to the big picture.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:14)

They also tend to make their own food.

Dr Angela Genoni (28:18)

Yes,

Yes, exactly. They prepare the food together. It's local. It's fresh. So there's lots of better things about the food culture when we look at those Mediterranean regions than what we do here. And it just makes you stop and think when you put all the other pieces of science together, it just makes you stop and think, well, I think, you know,

we've perhaps got things a little bit wrong with the way we've done things, and perhaps we need to step back. Let's put all the pieces of the science together and appreciate food for what it is.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:55)

It sounds like part of the science and medicine of what you do is encouraging people to simply enjoy food.

Dr Angela Genoni (29:02)

Yes, yes, exactly. Once you've learned a bit more about your body and you understand a bit more how it works, then you've got a little bit more empowerment by yourself to not get sucked into some of those things that you might see on extreme diets and so on. And also seeing the bigger picture also helps you feel a little bit less stressed about it as well, because you know what your body needs. You also can see the bigger picture.

So then you can start to put it into perspective, into how it fits in with your life and how you want to live your life and how it fits with your family.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:41)

So fitting things into how life is.

Dr Angela Genoni (29:45)

Yeah, exactly. It's, you know, food has to be part of your daily schedule. We can't tell people to eat a certain way because we don't know what work schedule they have, how many trips they have to do after school with the children, like, you know, what other things they have on in their life, what other health conditions they might have. So we can't we can't make assumptions about people and what kind of diet they want because your diet has to be

Your diet, not anyone else's.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:18)

It's a personal choice. Let's look at families a bit more for a moment because it's worth especially looking at what children eat. And I'm wondering, do you think that schools need to do things differently, along with parents changing their attitudes?

Dr Angela Genoni (30:19)

Yeah.

This is a tough one because, you know, I've got three boys and boys eat an absolute truckload of food, and I probably don't even want to disclose my grocery bill because they're way taller than me, my boys, you know, they're all sporty, so they eat a lot of food. But I think generally, and you know, other parents may have different opinions, but I think younger kids are pretty good at eating, you know, what parents provide for them, and generally, lunch boxes ⁓ could be improved a little bit for the younger kids, but a lot of kids do eat a good variety when it's packed for them. I think the hard part is those teenage years when there's a lot of processed food, easy food, ⁓ peer pressure. That's where the school culture around food could probably be a bit better.

But it's hard, you know, they're teenagers, they're finding their way in life. And, you know, we have to find a balance too. I know I don't want my boys to grow up with any disordered eating or to feel that certain foods are bad. I'm just setting an example, and hopefully one day they'll come back and follow my example with how they eat. But for now, you know, they just do what their friends are doing. And unfortunately, sometimes that means they eat a fair bit of junk. But

Yeah, I think that the culture around fast food and processed foods as a society, we need to shift that somehow, but I'm not sure of the answer there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:19)

So it sounds like there just isn't a solution to that one because especially the fast food, it hasn't gone away. And a lot of us in our heads, would you agree? We know intellectually that some of these foods aren't good for us. We know that, but groups will end up leaning towards it anyway. But it sounds like there's not a lot we can always do.

Dr Angela Genoni (32:26)

No.

Yeah, and it's very confusing too, because on one hand, we know that ultra-processed foods are not great for us. But we also know, we and we see every day when we go to the supermarket, that a lot of ultra-processed foods also have some kind of health claim on them. So then it becomes, well, is this a healthy ultra-processed food? Or is this a bad ultra-processed food? Because where's the line? Like, it's very difficult for people, everyday people to work out.

Is this one okay, or is this one not? And if I'd asked any one of my clients how much ultra-processed food they ate, they would say, not much. And it's because when they've eaten those foods, they've sort of been clopped in their mind as a health food because of those labels that are somewhat misleading. It is a very difficult area, and it requires input around the whole food system.

about policy from a top-down approach. So it's a much bigger conversation than we can solve here today, that's for sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:52)

Right, you're saying it's a policy issue.

Dr Angela Genoni (33:55)

Yeah, I think it has to come down to many stakeholders talking, and yeah, how do we improve access to fresh, healthy foods? How do we encourage people to cook together as a family? How do we go back to those more simple food environments where we naturally eat less of those foods? Those are the conversations which will shift.

those types of societal behaviors. And for now, it's very much pushed back on the individual in terms of you need to eat two fruits and five vegetables, but we don't stop and tell people why they need to do that and why the gut microbiome is so important in that conversation. And that's where, like I'm trying to slot in and just help people understand the why and the how behind it, so they want to nurture their body better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:50)

The purpose can help people.

Dr Angela Genoni (34:52)

Yes,

Yes, exactly. I don't, you know, many of my clients have not learned about human biology since high school. So you know, it's a long time and you know, we all know where our stomach is. Beyond that, in the digestive system, it's all a bit confusing. So going back and helping people work that out and go, that's why that happens when I eat that, you know, that's like those are big light bulb moments for people. And it's, it's lovely to see when people

have enough knowledge to empower themselves with their food decisions.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:27)

It sounds like community was emerging as a bit of a theme in what you said before about how people need to enjoy cooking and eating together. It's about being communal. Do you think that our culture needs to become more communal essentially?

Dr Angela Genoni (35:38)

Mm.

Yeah, I think when we look at other cultures where the, like a Mediterranean style food culture, but those types of societies also would see less impact of things like anxiety and depression because the social connectedness that comes along with preparing food together and eating food together can't be underestimated.

when we connect with one another, we benefit our food intake and we're preparing food together, but we also benefiting our mental health and there's social, there's benefits to the gut microbiome from the gut brain access from that social connectedness, but also we are sharing bacterial populations with one another. So it benefits our gut directly as well, and they're all interlinked. And I think that's the take—home message from my book and my program is that the all of the parts of our body and our society, they're all linked in together. And this is a beautiful ecosystem inside our gut. And it's not just one thing that can fix it. It's many things. And we have to step back and see the see the big picture.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:07)

It's many things. Are you saying the gut can change just being around other people?

Dr Angela Genoni (37:12)

Yes, yes. And I talked about it. There's a few studies which are quoted in my book about when you go to social interactions, right, you hug other people, you might kiss other people, you might share food with other people. So yes, you're sharing bacterial loads with them. And yes, that is reflected in your gut microbiome composition. So yes, it's entirely possible that going out

socially and kissing all your relatives once a week impacts your gut microbiome because you're just picking up different bacterial loads from all of those social interactions and eating different foods and ⁓ trying new things and being in different environments. So that can all have an impact.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:01)

That's especially relevant. It's worth acknowledging that there are some mental health awareness days and weeks at the moment, like R U OK Days. So that's going to tie in with that really neatly. So if someone was thinking that their situation is getting really extreme, perhaps they know their gut is kind of wrecked in some way. Do they need to?

Dr Angela Genoni (38:12)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:30)

Go to the GP. Do they need to find someone like you? What's the first?

Dr Angela Genoni (38:35)

think the first step is always the, you know, see your GP, see your medical professional. It's like with any other illness; changing your diet can be very significant in terms of your clinical outcomes. But it's not the thing that often requires immediate treatment, you know, the pharmacological interventions, and seeing your care provider is your first stop.

And then we can come in and supplement what they're doing with some dietary changes. Because if someone's feeling really down, then they probably can't have the energy to make any dietary changes at that point in time. So we've got to get people feeling a bit better first before we can help with the dietary changes to help people climb out of where they are.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:30)

Is your dietary solution about long-term habits?

Dr Angela Genoni (39:33)

Absolutely. And I'm very much against, you know, radical changes to diets, because we know, you know, research is very clear that if you go on some extreme diet, yes, you might lose weight and you might look feel fantastic. And everyone tells you Look fantastic for 12 months, but most people will put that weight back on, and some within 12 months of stopping that diet. And that is not a recipe for long-term health. So let's do it right, right from the start, and let's help people understand the why. So why they need to focus on their, their body and how amazing their body is and that they should love their body for what it can do. And then, you know, find some positive goals, which are not weight related and make things, make changes slowly enough that you can embed them into your routines because

If you do it slowly enough, then you build up your confidence just because you're doing it. You're smashing it. If you can add in one apple a day for the next week, wow, look at you go. You've ticked something off. And those things build you up instead of dragging you down. And that's what we want.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:51)

starting with one change at a time.

Dr Angela Genoni (40:53)

Yeah, one change at a time, because if you think about it, if you look forward in the future three months, if you only made one change of Fortnite for three months, you still made six changes. And those six changes could be all your diet needed to get it from not so good to fantastic. So, you know, it doesn't take much to turn your whole dietary pattern around if you do it slowly and you won't even really notice it if you do it in that way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:28)

You're preventing overwhelm. And I really appreciate that because there are some experts out there who will provide a long list of things to try. And it can just look like so much, and where to begin. So you're telling people just to do one thing. And it sounds like there's a lot of self-forgiveness in this, that it's not about being perfect.

Dr Angela Genoni (41:30)

Yes, yes.

Mm.

No, and I dislike it when the one things that you start with should be things that you add in, not that you take away. So we're not restricting what you're doing. We're just going to give you a few extra grams of fibre a day to start your on your journey. And then as you go on with your one thing, you can, you know, subtract something else out later on, or you can swap something. understanding that dietary change is hard.

And understanding that your gut bacteria need to be fed, just like your cat or your dog, you need to feed your little guys in your gut as well. And understanding that those bacteria are going to give you health benefits in return for eating that stuff. Then it becomes a little bit more motivating to just make that one change at a time. And yes, I don't.

I don't believe in being overwhelmed because I think as a society, we've had enough of that when it comes to diets. We just want things that are, and I think there is a bit more of a movement to having a bit more science into what we're doing, and also making things a little bit less extreme. ⁓ You know, those are the people that I really love working with because, yeah, the ones that are sick of diets, because

We need to make it more sustainable.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:20)

You sound so passionate about being sick of diets. And especially, you mentioned the carb-free diet that some people try. I love carbs. I am in love with carbs, but people are so scared of that. And some people are thinking everybody should be gluten-free. Let's go ahead and what are the food rules people need to get rid of like that?

Dr Angela Genoni (43:22)

Yeah.

Cool.

Yes!

Okay, so the carbs one is a big one, and I see I'm on social media a bit with because of my business, and the fiber one comes up quite regularly actually, around carbs, or you don't need fiber, and you don't need carbs and ⁓ the evidence is so clear that yes, we do need them. The carbohydrates provide really the majority of the food source for your gut bacteria. So

Don't let anybody tell you that you don't need to have carbohydrates because your gut needs to eat, and without the carbohydrates from fibers from grains and cereals, they don't get fed much. So that is one myth that has to go. And the other one is fruit. Fruit is not toxic. Fruit is good for your gut, and it's especially good for your gut. all of the...

colourful compounds that are in fruit plus the fruit sugars, yes, they're sugars, but they're packaged up with fibre and the polyphenols, they're very good for us, and they're especially good for our gut bacteria, so we need to eat more fruit.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:03)

The fruit for those who are panicking that there's sugar in fruit, you're saying it's surrounded by something that makes it okay. It's not the same as the sugar in candy.

Dr Angela Genoni (45:04)

Yes.

Correct, yes. The thing with the sugars, the processed sugars, the issue with those, they are a carbohydrate. So it can be a bit confusing there because carbohydrates in general are quite good for our gut microbiome. But simple sugars from...

In isolation, like when we have them in sweets and cakes and so on, the quantity is so much greater than what you would get from fruit. And the types of bacteria that can eat those simple sugars are not necessarily the good ones. So we that's why simple sugars in the colon are not so desirable. And that's why, you know, fruit is fine because it's packaged up with the fibre. But when it comes to

know, lollies and so on. It doesn't have that benefit. So that's why it can be more detrimental.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:15)

So the sugar, the ultra-processed, actually, it's better late than never, defining ultra-processed for those who don't know.

Dr Angela Genoni (46:25)

So ultra processed foods are there, there is in the academic literature, there is four different classes of processing of foods. So ultra-processed foods doesn't include like the minimally processed foods like breads and that you would make at home. Like if you made a bread, you you processing it, but it's not, doesn't count as an ultra-processed food. So if it's ultra-processed,

It's using ingredients that we would generally not have available to us at home to make that food. So that makes it pretty easy. If you look at the ingredients list and you've seen a whole list of things that you can't buy in the supermarket to make it yourself, then it counts as an ultra-processed food.

But again, I also like to help people not get too hung up on that because you could spend your whole life in the supermarket looking at labels, which is also not helpful. So if you're only eating those foods, you know, now and again, or on Friday night or whenever it is, then is it really an issue? Probably not. It's better if we just say, "‘Let's try not to eat the stuff in the packets, full stop.’ And then we don't need to have that conversation with ourselves about is this ultra-processed or not it's just yeah it's just an easier discussion to just go - I'm just going to buy the less processed bread and that's done.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:00)

less processed. Does this mean that if the tub of hummus at a party has preservatives in it, but it's the one-off celebration, we'll all be okay?

Dr Angela Genoni (48:06)

Yep.

Yes, exactly. It's all in the dose, right? Like, yes, it's got preservatives in it. And yes, those preservatives might have an impact on our gut bacteria, because what's their role in food is to prevent bacterial growth. So, of course, it makes sense that yes, they might still have that effect once they reach our colon. But if we're having it once at a party over a two-month period, is that a problem? No. Like, we're getting worried about things that are probably not

worth worrying about in the context of our total diet, and that's where we need to think about the big picture, because it's the total diet that matters, and those occasional things probably don't matter very much.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:55)

This is so encouraging, especially I think when we wanted to get it right, especially when someone is a parent or simply wanting to do the right thing. You're saying it's not black and white and we don't have to pass and not fail all the time with our food choices. It's okay.

Dr Angela Genoni (49:16)

Absolutely. It is okay to be human and it is okay to eat foods that you just want to eat now and again. It's okay if you're having ice cream or pizza now and again. it's, we need to, it's more important probably that you eat those foods with your family and have it and make it part of a celebration and it becomes something joyful in life rather than stressing about the actual food. So.

There's a bigger picture at play and I think sometimes we get too caught up on all the ingredients rather than enjoying food for being food.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:56)

This became so much more of a version of holistic than I even expected.

Dr Angela Genoni (50:02)

It's gut health-focused, but it's gut health in the right place, isn't it? It's got to be, we can't have a diverse gut microbiome without having this conversation, actually, because there's so much more to gut health than just, you know, focusing on all of the fibre that we're eating.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:23)

So it sounds like what we really need for our overall health, because the gut health, from what I understand, just to let me know if this is right, the gut health can pretty much affect everything. Everything. So it sounds like, for our overall health in any way, we need to simply try to eat right when we can, but live life.

Dr Angela Genoni (50:34)

Yes, correct. Yep, yep.

Yes, eat more plants, eat more plants, eat more plants with your family, sit down together with your family, move your body, prioritise your exercise and your sleep, and your gut will improve, but also probably many other things in your life will improve too, and the gut is just one part of supporting all of those things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:12)

That's amazing wisdom. As we get close to an hour, I want to wind up by checking the ideals. Why not go to the extreme of the ideals? Five or 10 years from now, especially in Australia and similar countries, what do you think things should look like for families and communities?

Dr Angela Genoni (51:34)

I think we need to see more families working together to prepare meals, to share the load around a bit. You know, being a single parent for the last five years, and I'm sure many of your listeners feel the pain of having to cook dinner every night. Like it is hard work, especially when you're working and you've got children and so on. If we as... You know, develop little micro communities within our communities where we take turns at cooking so that we can share the load around a bit, things become a bit more communal. I think that's where some of these solutions lie, and they're kind of easy things to implement, actually, because it's just connecting people with one another.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:25)

So cook for your friends.

Dr Angela Genoni (52:27)

Yeah, or just like in your local area, you know, come up with a group of people that you can connect and that have similar food values to yourself, you know, no point connecting with people with different dietary patterns, but connecting with other people who have similar sort of dietary preferences to your family. And that might mean you also get together a few times a week and eat together, like it could be a way of ticking off a lot of boxes all at once in terms of.

getting people connected in the local communities, but also sharing resources. And that would also reduce food waste and many other things, along with the whole food system approach. Those types of small ideas can become big movements if we get enough people interested.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:18)

Maybe we need more picnics, especially getting to spring and summer.

Dr Angela Genoni (53:21)

Yeah,

Yes, I think we could, that picnic is a great idea. We just need no magpies, don't we?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:28)

Right, right. Hope

for the best with that one. You might have more make eyes over there. I'm not sure. I used to live further up north in Queensland, and there were regular, frequent vegan picnics, and I would love to see maybe all of the young families gathering for a picnic, or all of the people from I don't know the

Dr Angela Genoni (53:33)

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:56)

The other communities, like the dance groups or whatever people are into, they can all do a picnic day on the weekend too.

Dr Angela Genoni (54:03)

Yes, those are simple things. Simple ideas which might help just bring people together, share food, reduce the load on people having to cook dinner every single night or cook, you know, it's, it's anything that can help ease our our load as running a household in this day and age, I think would be quite welcomed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:28)

You seem to be easing the time cost of food preparation in that idea and also the, the cost of living by sharing food and also bringing people together. So that's, that's probably needed more than ever right now.

Dr Angela Genoni (54:43)

Mm.

Exactly, yeah, then there's lots, but there's, I'm sure, you know, many of your listeners would also have, you know, other ideas where they could brainstorm with sharing resources together. Food is expensive, and wasting food is expensive. So, you know, and it's time, it's amount of time that takes to prepare healthy food sometimes can be a barrier. Not that it has to be a fancy recipe, you know, baked beans on toast is a

perfectly acceptable meal if that's what you've got time for. Perfect. Perfect legumes are very underrated for gut health. So yes, we all need more legumes and I love the old baked beans. I think they're very cheap and ⁓ fantastic gut food.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:19)

Angela, can you believe I ate that right before talking?

They really are. It's a hack, honestly. It's

so true. People think that it has to be fancy. And look, I'll have my moment of wanting to soak dry beans or that, but sometimes we have to be real. And I'm really looking up to you because you did reveal that you're a single mother, and you mentioned how teenagers, teenage boys in particular, eat so much. And I think that even at all sorts of ages, families have different issues. But there are so many people who are

Dr Angela Genoni (55:45)

No.

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:07)

single and looking after themselves or families these days. think that there was so many that just has happened so much. So I think that people can really learn that if you're able to do this in the career you're having and with the family life that you have, if you can do it, then anyone can.

Dr Angela Genoni (56:25)

Absolutely, and I did my PhD when my kids were quite small and they're big now and I've started my business and I've managed to keep working and write a book and I've done all the things, but I have prioritised having fairly healthy meals and it can be done, it just takes a little bit of ⁓ planning.

And I'm quite organised, and you can do it, it can be done, and if I can do it, then yes, many other people can do it too. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:57)

You're becoming a role model, and you're reminding everybody, whether they are leading an organization or leading their families as parents, to be role models, but also just look after themselves as well. Sounds like that's some of the key.

Dr Angela Genoni (57:10)

Yes, yes, we can't show up as who we want to be unless we are the best versions of ourselves. And yeah, looking at our bodies is actually amazing if we stop and take a look at the inside. So let's celebrate that and nurture it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:27)

Dr. Angela Giannone, that line there sums up the amazing work you are doing, telling people to be the best versions of themselves. Thank you.

Dr Angela Genoni (57:36)

Thank you for having me.