Podcast Episode: Melanie Smith on authentic corporate and organisational leadership

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Melanie Smith, welcome to the podcast. We've talked before, and this is our first time recording. My understanding of the context of what you do is that you guide mainly mid-level managers as they look at their career progression. How do you explain what you do in your

Mel (00:13)

So the way I would describe myself is a leadership and career coach who also does a little spattering

of leadership development work. And I do predominantly work with mid-level leaders across a whole variety of organisational sectors. ⁓ And my focus is really on helping to create leaders who have high levels of self-awareness, who are providing

fantastic work environments for the teams that they're working with, also operating from their strengths, essentially. So yeah, that's where I'm focused in my time and attention.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:02)

Awesome. So you're helping people to focus on their strengths. How do people often focus on their strengths? How do people even identify their strengths?

Mel (01:08)

Good question. So there's a range of ways that people can identify strengths. There's some very subjective ways that you can kind of

call out.

the things that you think you're really good at. But I use for the people that I work with, I use a strength survey. ⁓ It's a survey called via strengths. ⁓ And it is a it's a scientifically research survey, there's a lot of research and development that goes into it. But it gives people an anchor point to think about their strengths through. So that's where I work with people just starting with that survey to help people build the strength. lot of people build an understanding of strength, sorry, a lot of people will use something like Gallup strengths. But via strengths, you can actually do a free survey online as well as get paid reports. So it's really accessible for people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:57)

So we're talking about how people can identify their strengths because often there are the obvious things that we think we know, like maybe someone is good at math or bad at math, but do you think sometimes there are...

Mel (02:01)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:10)

things we don't realise we're good at, and how do people find out?

Mel (02:15)

Well, I think that there's more than just things that we think that we're good at or not good at. ⁓ And so the way that I look at strengths is I look at technical strengths, so the kind of business.

strengths or the functional strengths or the, you know, technical pieces that we learn that we're really good at. But then I really focus in on character strengths. So character strengths, you might have heard of Gallup strengths as a survey tool. I personally use these strengths as a survey tool, which is a scientifically researched tool. And it helps you to identify the strengths that you have as an individual, and helps you to then work through where you might be over- or underplaying some of those strengths.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:43)

What is it?

Mel (02:54)

⁓ And what it talks about is your top five strengths being your signature strengths. So when you're operating from your signature strengths, you're most in flow. And I often, when I'm working with clients, I'm talking about where they see themselves over and under using some of those strengths so that we can work on how to optimise those strengths to make them operate from a more sustainable and effective place, if that makes sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:21)

So first of all, what's that study for those who don't know?

Mel (03:26)

Yep, so the-

Yeah, it's a VIA, it's called VIA Strength Service, so VIA. You can do the free version. There's, and I like it because it's really accessible for people. You don't have to pay a lot of money to be able to access it. But if you do want more detailed reporting, you can pay for those reports as well. So it gives you a really nice overview of what each of those strengths means and how you, what that means about how you could show up. And I think it's a really nice way to anchor a conversation.

about strengths because if I was to engage you in a conversation about what do you think your personal strengths are, I would pretty much guarantee that you're going to struggle to articulate that. So it just gives a nice anchor point for a conversation around strengths.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:17)

Okay, so there are the character strengths. What are some character traits that people might thrive in that they might not have consciously thought of?

Mel (04:27)

Well, so the survey will give you your top, there's 24 character strengths, and it will give you your top to bottom of where those strengths lie for you. And they're all strengths, none of them are weaknesses. It's just about which ones you default to most often. So, as an example, my top two character strengths are fairness and bravery.

And that plays out in a lot of different spaces for me. So I will often be triggered, so I can overuse my fairness strength when I get triggered by commentary or behaviors of other people and because bravery is my second strength, I've really had to learn how to optimize these top two particularly because often what's happened for me as an individual is when my fairness strength gets triggered, bravery kicks in and I call people out no matter the environment, no matter what's going on. And so I've had to learn how to temper that, think about the environment, still utilise those strengths, but maybe utilise some of my kind of lesser strengths to help balance that out a little bit. So you can imagine working in construction as a young female or male environment, lots of commentary and then the young female being the very outspoken, vocal person at the table that others didn't really want to hear from at times.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:51)

Let's dive into that because I can relate to that a lot. And it's really interesting. It's very clear culturally that women are expected to not speak up about things. And there are definitely some men out there who can just be honest about what's happening, and people think they're just doing their jobs or showing leadership. But

Mel (06:04)

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:16)

You know, I'm not trying to be a raging feminist here, but it's just the truth that women end up looking difficult just because we're saying this is what's happening. I have. Is that what your experience was, and how did you handle it?

Mel (06:24)

Mmm.

Yeah, so at this particular point in my career, I was pretty young. I was in my 20s. And I specifically remember now that you kind of raise it, I specifically remember a very senior person that I was supporting giving me feedback that I didn't suffer fools. ⁓ And my response, bravery and fairness, sitting up there in my top strengths, my response was, I feel like the behaviours that I exhibit, you will reward in my male colleagues. Please help me understand why it's a constructive feedback point for me. And he didn't really know how to respond to that at that point, but ⁓ I've always been quite firm in my position and I've kind of stood against the unfairness or the...

biases that existed in spaces. And I felt that because I was strong enough to do that, I was able to do that for others as well. So being in a people and culture space, it kind of served me. had a position at the table. I was quite brave in putting these opinions forward. I just faced it head-on. I just faced things head-on on and not everybody can do that. Not everybody's comfortable to do that. Not everybody's willing to take those risks, you know, because it is risky calling out these behaviors in these types of environments.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:46)

it

It really is. So you were a young female working in a male-dominated industry. And I'm going to speculate. I really want to know if you agree. I think that some women have that stereotype imposed on them, and the expectation even more when they might be young or looking more feminine. And of course, we're dealing with a lot of stereotypes here, but

Mel (07:56)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:16)

Have you seen that happening where some women, in particular, just look maybe a bit more girly or something like that, and there's even more of an expectation?

Mel (08:25)

to behave in a certain way or to be kind of, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I do think that that, so what I've seen is that women who show up more feminine and...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:27)

Yeah, to now direct the boat, all of that.

Mel (08:39)

or sitting in their femininity very comfortably in that space are often torn down. So there's one lady that I recall, I was working with her, and the commentary around her was that she was a pit bull with lipstick. Like those kinds of comments would be, yeah, would be made because she did wear heels, and she did wear lipstick, and she didn't show up in high vis, and she wasn't wearing steel cap boots all the time. And she was very confident.

in her femininity. ⁓ And it was it was constantly called out ⁓ by others in the environment. And I do think that those there is shifts, not all of those environments are the same anymore. But it's still definitely exists. It's out there. And I also think that for women in those spaces, particularly when you're sitting in a leadership level, ⁓ one of the things that I really struggled with is you start to find yourself adapting your behaviour to the environment. So where people are really aggressive, you almost feel like you've got to fight fire with fire. for me personally, I kind of was like, this doesn't feel like me anymore. I feel like I'm losing myself to this environment, which meant that I wasn't able to effectively operate in my strengths. I wasn't able to ⁓ turn up and and and just be.

And I think there's really something really important about being able to turn up and just be who you are without being cut down or worried about someone overpowering you or trying to dominate you in meetings. I mean, I sat across ⁓ from a gentleman in a meeting who I would say straight up tried to intimidate me. And I called it out, but that's me. Not all women will feel comfortable to do that. So yeah, not fun. Definitely not fun.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:33)

Going to suggest that people of any gender can be people pleasers and then it's really hard because then if we are even calling something out and the men could be the people pleasing types or the types who avoid confrontation and conflict, then do they handle this even more in more of a difficult way? Do they feel a lot more emotion about it when a woman is speaking about the truth?

Mel (11:04)

I, so my brain's going in two ways on this question because I think that there are men in those environments who don't demonstrate that really aggressive masculine style, who also struggle in those environments with the expectation of the conflict and the combative nature of the culture and whatnot of the sector. But I think that it's almost like a show.

⁓ this combative nature of things. It's almost like a show. It's like who's bigger and more superior. Yeah. And when you get underneath it, there's a lot of like, I know in the construction industry, for example, and we're speaking about construction, but across a lot of industries, but in construction, particularly, there's a huge amount of mental health ⁓ issues amongst people who work in construction. And I remember years ago reading a piece of research that said,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:36)

can act.

Mel (12:02)

When there was a woman in a team or in a project team, there was significantly lower mental health issues because the men felt like they could be freer to share their feelings, freer to be more vulnerable. And so there was this massive benefit of having women involved in the construction industry to provide those outlets and that calming effect, almost, because it allowed people and outlet to speak about things. the, you know, even for men in that industry.

I don't think it's a great experience. So it's hard as a woman, but it's not easy as a man either.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:39)

They’re expected to play the character of the tough guy.

Mel (12:44)

I think so, in a lot of instances. It’s not, like I say, it's not everywhere, there are some really fantastic companies that have awesome cultures and do a lot of work to make sure that the well-being of their staff is looked after. But there are pockets where it's still very what I would consider old school.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:04)

Yes,

So you mentioned the mental health.

Let's really dig into that because I really wonder right now globally, if people are sort of a bit more emotionally rocky right now, there are a few more things in the news, and people are still stretched and juggling with their careers. But what I wanted to ask about is how can people bring their mental health or their ongoing conditions up?

Mel (13:08)

Yes.

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:35)

In conversation in a way where they don't have to reveal things they don't want to reveal, but they maybe need just a hint of flexibility to keep doing their work, but in a different way. I know some people just want to never reveal a label, and some people identify with their labels like it is their whole person. So what do you suggest in those sorts of situations?

Mel (13:52)

Yeah.

It's tricky because it depends on where you are. ⁓ And I say this because there are environments that are really open to having conversations around mental health. really aware of, and they really care. So they're aware and they care about their people enough that they want to engage in those conversations. They want to be ⁓ able to support and to help. And then there's other environments where potentially the environment itself is unsafe. And so for people to raise those types of mental health challenges then creates a risk around, ‘Will I be seen as not capable of doing my job? Will I be the first person on the chopping block if there's a redundancy process? Will I be labelled?’ No. No, 100 % is not allowed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:45)

Is that allowed?

Mel (14:53)

But it doesn't stop it from happening, unfortunately. And the more sophisticated ⁓ organisations will know how to kind of put little bit of a shroud around what's going on there. ⁓

So I think the first thing that I would advise people to think about is what is the level of psychological safety in the organisation to actually have some of these conversations. That's number one, because I would never encourage someone to just go in and have a conversation in an environment where it's actually gonna create more harm than good for them. Organisations have an obligation under the Psychological Safety Act to provide safe work environments. That legislation is not that

old when and when legislation is new, it's generally quite untested. So I don't know yet what the repercussions will be for people who are for organisations who are found to not be providing psychological, psychologically safe environments. And there may be case law out there that I haven't seen. So I'm not an expert in that space. But I think the first thing is, is there psychological safety to have the conversation? The second piece would be to

⁓ I think be clear on what the accommodations are or what support you need from the or ⁓ so that if you do have the safety in the environment and you can have that conversation, you're clear on what you're asking for. And the third piece is go get some support and some advice from, you know, industry bodies or ⁓ your people and culture function to help support you in having that conversation, because often leaders are, well, in a lot of organisations, leaders haven't yet built the skills to be able to deal with these types of conversations. They're not even sure of what their obligations are, even though they should be; they're not always. So, seeking some support in preparing for that conversation and having that conversation and being clear on what your needs are, is it around flexibility? Is it around working ⁓ in a space where you can have quiet because you're feeling overwhelmed? Is it about being able to sit in a meeting and turn your camera off because you know it's creating overwhelm, or whatever it is. You've just got to be clear on what those accommodations are and if you've got medical advice and support that backs that up that obviously helps because it then creates some credibility around the request which makes it harder to deny or decline if that makes sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:38)

So we do need that credibility from the health space potentially or definitely.

Mel (17:43)

I think it helps,

yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:47)

Yeah. So you also mentioned bringing in someone to help and advise. So, how new is this law? And I mean, I didn't even heard about it. So what should we know?

Mel (18:02)

Um, like I said, I'm not an expert in the Psychological Safety Act, but it came into play, I would say, like 2018, 2019. It was around there, like.

around that period of time. And it was built into the Workplace Health and Safety Act. So it created an obligation on employers to provide environments that are psychologically safe. ⁓ And psychological safety has broad definition, there's obviously pieces around making sure that you're actively discouraging bullying, but there's pieces around work hours and culture and all sorts of stuff in there. So it's really around

acknowledging that workplaces have a very significant role to play when it comes to psychological injuries of their employees. And they should be doing everything within their control and their power to ⁓ mitigate the risk of psychological injury, essentially. And I think it comes off the back of there was in the workers compensation world, there was a really significant increase in ⁓ in psychological injuries, it has been since I've been working in people and culture for decades, but it's really gotten worse and worse over time. And to the point where, you know, they're the most costly injuries. They're really hard to manage because it's not like a broken arm where, you know, you've got six weeks of for your bone to heal and then some rehab and you're back at work. It's much, much harder to manage.

For the employee and for the employer. So I like the idea that if we have better workplaces, we have less injuries and putting the owners on the workplace to create that environment, I think, is a good idea.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:43)

What is a psychological injury? Is it a trauma at work? Does it include bullying? What comes under that umbrella?

Mel (19:51)

So many things. So a psychological injury is, I guess, like any other injury, but it's it's something that's had an impact on your psychology. So it could be a traumatic event. could be bullying. It could be anxiety due to overwhelming workloads. ⁓ It could be a whole range of things. And it's it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:54)

⁓ really?

Mel (20:17)

It needs to fall under the definitions of the workers compensation act in terms of this, definition of psychological injury. I don't have that in front of me, so I'm not sure exactly what's included. But it's basically that you've work has to be the main contributing factor is, is one of the key criteria.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:26)

Thank you.

Mel (20:36)

And I've had conversations with leaders who are like, this person's talking about, and stress is not a psychological industry injury. Stress is a physiological state. ⁓ It's about, you know, so we used to hear about stress claims a lot, but stress itself is not an actual injury. But if someone was suffering anxiety due to overwhelming work pressures, and that would be a psychological, psychological injury, instance.

Too many psychologicals. But I have seen leaders who have talked about, okay, well, this person's putting in a claim around a psychological injury, but we know that they're also dealing with things outside of work that are personal in nature. And there's often this call that needs to be made from the insurer around what is the major contributing factor. ⁓ And if work is a contributing factor to that, ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:27)

The main thing.

Mel (21:33)

How much of it is work-related, and what needs to be done in the workplace to shift that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:39)

I can imagine that would be a very sensitive process to figure out because it means checking what's going on in someone's personal life.

Mel (21:44)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there and I really feel for people who do have psychological injuries because ⁓ they are often misunderstood in the workplace. Some people are seen to be unable to cope and making things up so that they don't have to do their job properly and that's actually a performance issue. ⁓

And sometimes that happens as well. Like, it is really subjective because, like I say, it's not like a broken bone or, you know, a torn muscle that you can measure the progress against. It's very subjective.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:33)

It is very subjective. I'm sort of just curious. So if, if someone was putting someone in an organisation through a whole lot of unnecessary systemic procedures, like we have to go through this process because I decided, and it might be a very involved, potentially humiliating, like.

Mel (22:37)

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:59)

Maybe making up accusations out of thin air and then just dragging it out, basically trying to. I've heard that at some organisations. This is a good way to put it at some organisations. Apparently, people make it so difficult for someone hoping they'll quit

Mel (23:15)

Yeah. So I'm sure that happens. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:19)

You haven't seen

a lot of that?

Mel (23:22)

Look, I've seen a lot of things on both sides of the fence. I have seen vexatious claims made, I have seen legitimate claims made, I have seen leaders who don't know how to engage and get a bit flabbergasted around around the whole thing. ⁓ But I've also seen leaders who have a lot of care for their employees and really want to work with them and help them to get well. And in those environments, that's obviously where you see the best results is where a leader is curious and is leaning in and is trying to understand ⁓ and is trying to work with the person rather than against them. And I think that in those environments, a lot of it comes down to the culture that the leader is creating. So, to create a psychologically safe culture is the first step.

And to then maintain it even when someone has a psychological injury and to really get underneath the hood and understand well what's been going on and what do we need to shift in our culture. So taking some of that ownership ⁓ is the best way to look at it. You hear about organisations that don't do that, that do push people out or that hope that they'll leave, whether it's an injury or a performance issue. ⁓

But those situations are usually like low-trust cultures. There's usually not a lot of psychological safety in those cultures in the first place. And those are the environments where I feel if you need to raise that you've got a mental health issue or if you're neurodivergent or if you've got some other challenge, if you've got a toxic work environment, that's where it's really challenging to put those things on the table.

And leaning on legislation then is more important. But if you have a really good work culture and people are really there to help the organisation be successful and support the team members to be successful in achieving the organisation's goals, you're more likely to have an environment where there's open discussions and there are accommodations. And, you know, we're trying to get the best out of people with the strengths that they have, rather than fighting against, you know, claims and challenges. So I personally would prefer to work in the latter. The one, the one, sorry, the one that has the positive culture,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:48)

curious

Absolutely.

Do you think that authenticity comes into the psychological safety of a space? And I'm wondering what that includes. I know there are some organisations where they will ask about someone's family, and people might want to talk about that and not talk about it. Or there are other forms of authenticity. Does that come into making it a better environment? And how do you balance that with simply keeping the professional image?

Mel (26:23)

So I think that it is important for people to be able to turn up authentically. There's a lot of research that says that if we are able to be our authentic selves, then we're going to be more effective in our work. We're not going to be putting on a mask every day. So one of the things that I think is really important to note is as humans, something like 70 % of our communication is not verbal. And so if someone's coming into work and they have to put a mask on every day to show up because they don't want to show parts of themselves,

safe

to show parts of themselves. That's taking time and energy for them to do. And for the person who's facing into them, I know for me, for instance, if I feel like there's something you're holding back, then I'd struggle to trust. Like, who are you actually? Like, what's going on behind the facade that I'm not seeing? And so I think there's, there's a professionalism piece in terms of our behaviour and the standards of behaviour that are accepted.

But I feel like there's space in professional environments to be authentic. And in fact, we get better connections and we have better conversations, and we can constructively challenge each other better if there is that space to be authentic. And that's where...

The strengths piece really comes in. If I can understand your strengths and you can understand mine, and that helps us better understand why we do particular things or how we turn up, then we can really start to have some good conversations about how we're utilizing our strengths and how we as a team can kind of map and organize people's work around strengths ⁓ to help everybody be successful.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:01)

So it's okay to reveal more about ourselves and to be a bit more real about more parts of our personalities and interests.

Mel (28:12)

I feel like it should be. And I know, as I say, like if you've got a low trust environment where it's not psychologically safe, that's going to be harder to do. But I feel like if you're in an environment and you can't be authentic, then you're not gonna be as effective. We should create space in organisations for people to be authentic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:33)

Part of that would probably be speaking up about our basic needs. So let's look at burnout for a second, because that gets a lot of talk. I think we can both relate to burnout and sometimes the signs. I'm wondering what can you share about the signs of burnout? Because I'm guessing for some of us, it starts off with a very subtle exhaustion, or we just keep going until we crash. So you think you're fine and then

Mel (28:41)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:02)

drop off the cliff. What should we know about burnout?

Mel (29:05)

Okay, so I again, I'm not an expert, but I can talk about my experience with burnout. And I know that it does show up differently for different people. And it can take a really long time to recover from. So for me, the early warning signs of burnout for me were actually anxiety, because I started to feel extraordinarily overwhelmed with I couldn't get through the work that was in front of me.

no matter how hard I tried, there was too much work, not enough resource that had the capability to do the work. And then me underneath the pile of everything trying to work through it. For me, it first showed up as really long work hours. So I was never really off. Even when I was offline, I was mentally ticking.

But there were some really significant symptoms that came in the form of things like I had an issue called, I think the acronym is TMJ, was an issue with my jaw. I couldn't actually open my jaw properly. I started to suffer migraines when I'd never suffered migraines.

I was sick all the time, everything that came around. If someone walked past me in the street and they were sick, I caught it. I was extraordinarily fatigued. I couldn't keep my eyes open. And I remember ⁓ really clearly going into my doctor and talking her through all of my symptoms. And she said to me, you are the clinical version. You are the clinical definition of burnout.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:35)

Thanks for your attention.

Mel (30:37)

That’s where you're at. And I had to go get CT scans and MRIs just to make sure that everything was functioning properly. I even had to get a lumbar puncture to make sure that, cause I had these headaches and whatnot, and they wanted to make sure I didn't have swelling on the brain, all sorts of stuff. And when I saw the neurologist after all these tests had been done, she said to me, ‘It’s lifestyle. It's… you know, really long sustained periods and very high pressure and stress. And you have to change your lifestyle to be able to manage it. And I do know that it turns up differently for different people. For some people, it can result in pretty significant depression, but it does turn up physically as well. ⁓ And I think it's important to call out that there's a difference between feeling overwhelmed and stressed for a period of time and burnout.

So I think the difference with burnout is that you are showing the physical symptoms of the body not coping. So yeah, it's kind of ⁓ a couple of things all coming together, but ⁓ burnout is on the rise across a whole range of industries. When I worked in the public sector, they had really terrible burnout statistics coming through.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:52)

percentage.

Mel (31:54)

Yeah, and I mean, admittedly, it was self-declared. So there was no kind of medical basis for it. People were talking about their how burnt out they were feeling. But, you know, people think that the public service is a space where you go work and it's easy and you just chill out. And here we are, we've got people who are frontline leaders, we've got people who are, you know, working in big departments, little departments and across the board, they were talking about how they were experiencing burnout. And I think

technology, ⁓ the inability to switch off, ⁓ the crossover with COVID of life and work and how we've continued to do that. We can overplay that strength of flexibility to our disadvantage. ⁓ And it can mean that we're always on. I remember early in my career, I had one of those computer towers under my desk. I didn't have a laptop. It's showing my age. And when I left work, I turned my computer off.

And I physically left the office, and work stayed there. I couldn't bring it home. It wasn't accessible. And then I think about now where, you you've got not just notifications on my phone. I've got notifications on my watch. You've got notifications on my laptop. I'm accessible in all sorts of ways. All the time. I talk to people who talk about getting emails and then a Teams message, and then a WhatsApp message. And it's all about the one thing. So we're overwhelmed and connected in a way that's ⁓ I don't think I've ever been experienced in workplaces before.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:28)

Yes. And I think that on top of the actual work that we're doing, a lot of people in all different professions are now expected to have some sort of online presence as well. You might've seen that in some ways, maybe with your independent work or something else. Most people are on LinkedIn. A lot of people have their own website, whatever it might be, but there's that extra layer where you're doing the work and then the work about the work. so there's definitely the online space and even, and

Mel (33:39)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:58)

Everybody can relate to the flexibility you're talking about where it looks flexible, but it means that we have less freedom. ⁓ so that's a part of the burnout. And you talked about your physical symptoms. The first person who was on this podcast, Catherine Crestani said that her fingers were going numb. And so that one really stood out to me because I think that I had a similar thing to what you had. had migraine cold, migraine cold.

But it's amazing knowing it can manifest as other things as well. So you're saying that if people are getting really sick, then it could be because, potentially, and again, we're both not doctors, but we've seen it in our own experience and in other people, that they could be overworked and burning out. I'm wondering, I know you're saying some organisations aren't as open to suggestions, but

Mel (34:33)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:56)

What should we do? And at what point, especially if someone is working at a place that isn't going to make adjustments, then what should they do to look after themselves?

Mel (35:08)

⁓ It’s a really tough one. ⁓ Because obviously, there's always the option of looking for alternative work, but that's not always an option for everyone. I think particularly in that space, I think about frontline workers like nurses, you know, and we've got so many nurses leaving the sector ⁓ because they're under-resourced and overworked. ⁓ So it's a tough one because if the option

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:09)

you

Mel (35:37)

is get out. There's people that really love what they do and don't want to have to do that. I think it really comes back to the leaders in these organisations and what they're willing to, the environment that they're creating and willing to tolerate for their people. And I think that's really what it comes down to. There's no kind of silver bullet to fix it. I think that we need to be creating environments where people can speak up and be heard and be believed.

Think that's a really important part of it. But then there's also that piece where leadership need to be thinking about what are the impacts of our decisions on our people first. So before you start implementing new systems, new processes, new strategies, like where are our people in this? And I think the organisations that have a people-centred approach have lower rates of burnout, have...

You know, higher rates of performance, they retain their employees, they're going to have higher trust environments because the people are at the center of it. And I don't, I really don't believe there's just a like, do this and it's, and it's going to be great. I think there's a speak up piece, and I think there's a kind of environment and believing your employees, and acknowledging when we could be doing things better and actively working to make it better.

I also think the lived experience of employees is really important to be ⁓ like that lived experience needs to be part of the solution. So if I'm sitting here telling you that I'm working 12-hour days, you should be worried as a leader because that's not sustainable. It's not sustainable for my health. It's not sustainable for my personal life. ⁓ It's not sustainable for my energy levels. And maybe it is for a few.

I'm in my head, I'm hearing people go, well, I work 12 hours a day and I'm fine. And for some people, that's okay, but to expect that of everybody isn't. So I think there's a, it's kind of top up, top-down, bottom-up approach in my view.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:47)

for sure. You identified something that I wish that the workaholics would realise that not everybody can do the 12-hour day. And I'm wondering if you can help me to really show top leaders that they're going to get better results, perhaps less mistakes from people working for them, perhaps just getting better quality work when people aren't getting burned out, and

Mel (37:55)

you

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:17)

So the benefits around that, and also the benefits of giving a chance to the people who can't do the 12-hour days, and so

Mel (38:25)

Well, I think... ⁓

think there's a piece, so there's a lot of people that I speak to in conversations I have with potential clients around, I don't want to be a CEO, I don't want to be in the C suite, ⁓ because I see how those people work, and I don't want to have to do that. And these are people that are really talented, high-potential, talented individuals who are opting out of senior leadership, because they don't like what they're seeing above them. And I find myself in this little bit of a

a sticky situation because I'm kind of like, well, unless we get people who don't work like that through to those positions, how do we ever provide a different example of what's possible? And so it's almost like the feminist movement, a little bit, you need some of those people to push through and break the boundaries to then create or open the floodgates for others to come through. And this goes for men and for women, I need to call out because there's lots and lots of men that I talk to who are saying,

I want to be available for my kids’ sports events. I want to be able to go to the school assembly. I want to be able to be present in my household and help out with the chores. And this is a big conversation shift that I've noticed over the last few years, particularly, I think since COVID, there's been that real shift. And I think, you know, those senior leaders out there with that expectation, are really doing themselves a disservice because they're potentially disengaging some of the really talented, high-performing people in their organisations. ⁓ And it's okay. I think we need to start saying it's okay for to want to be successful at work and to want to enjoy life. And the martyrdom of I work 12, 14-hour days every day, I get up at 4 am to, you know, log on and do something like let's get real guys.

Those are the people that have heart attacks at 60. And it's not, it's the martyrdom. I think we need to start celebrating ⁓ work-life integration and allowing the space for people who are really good at what they do to lead without having to martyr themselves in the process.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:47)

I'm wondering if you have any suggestions to the people who are shaping industries as a whole, because as lucky enough to know leaders in the last while who feel a bit helpless with industries that are burning out people on all levels, from the top to the bottom. And especially I'm seeing just the irony where it's in some of the most important fields, be it.

Mel (41:06)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:15)

Gosh, education or looking after people or anything. And I'm really, really concerned. I don't know if it's the associations, whether it's the legal side decision makers. I don't know, but if there's something you can say to the people shaping a whole industries to change things so that everybody can be okay, because I'm a little bit worried.

What if some of the leaders out there feel like they don't have a choice but to be burnt out, and then, you know, that's not helping anyone. What can we do to help everybody?

Mel (41:54)

That's a big question.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:56)

Sorry!

Mel (41:58)

Okay, I think it's system. I think it's the systems that we work within. I think that when we're, if you're in an organisational system or an industry system that is built in a particular way, we need to break the system down and actively and intentionally build it differently. And so if I come back to that construction example, if you think about construction, the way that it works as an industry, is the developer is trying to get the lowest possible price for the product. The builder or the construction company is trying to get the highest possible price, and they're not really on the same team here, right? So it creates a combative environment. So the developer pushes them down, the construction company will go, okay, well, we'll agree to that price, but then we're going to find all of these opportunities to create variations in the contracts, very contract-driven ⁓ and it's very combative. And

If you think about the environment that that creates, it's not then surprising that at all levels through those industries, it's like this kind of to and fro, we're going to fight you for the for the last dollar, I'm going to get what I can out of this situation. So when you don't have, ⁓ you know, collaborative ways of working and partnerships, even if it looks that way on the surface, underneath, there's always a lot of kind of to and fro and fighting and contractual arguments. So what is the system that would work in that space that then releases the pressure valve a little bit, right? And in very legal contractual environments, often the pressure valve is very high. And when we're trying to kind of push down to the lowest dollar and we're trying to push up, like you've got this tension all the time, ⁓ it's very high stress and it's difficult to manage. And that then creates longer work environments and reactiveness and all sorts of stuff, which isn't helpful. So if there's industry bodies out there that are listening to this, I think it's about how do you think about the system in that industry and the culture that creates across the industry and then what are the opportunities to shift that change that improve on that so that there are less people feeling the brunt of this all the way through the organizations that are within that industry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:23)

Absolutely. I wanted to go back to organisational culture for a second, and this can apply to communities as well as workplaces. We just had, I think, R U OK Day just happened, and there was the suicide prevention. So we had a little mental health awareness weeks, and I saw a post on LinkedIn. can't remember who wrote this, that it was called a cupcake effect, something like that. A lot of places are apparently having a day.

Mel (44:27)

Mm.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:52)

of awareness, and then going back to what they always do. So what are some simple ways, it sounds like you've seen that quite a bit. So I'm really curious. What are some simple things that people can do to make sure they don't slip back into old habits?

Mel (45:00)

Yeah.

So one thing that, and this is really granular, but if you're a leader in an organisation, one of the things that I've seen that works really well is starting every meeting or every one-on-one with asking people how they're feeling on a scale of one to 10. Something as simple as that can help to shift the dial on understanding where your employees are at, what's going on with them, and it creates the opportunity to have a discussion about it. Now, if you've got an employee and they come in and they say, I'm a six, but every day there are six, that's cool. And the question you might ask is, how do we get you to a seven or eight? What would need to happen to get you there?

But if you've got an employee that comes in and says, I'm a six every time, and then they come in one day and they say, I'm a three, okay, we need to have a conversation, what's going on, and what support can I give you? Or is there something going on at home or whatever? I think having some really simple.

conversation, it's all about the conversation. So if we're only having a conversation once a year, and I 100 % agree with that view, it's the you know, the tokenistic, are you okay? Well, no, okay, I'm great today, but I wasn't yesterday. You didn't care about me then. Right? ⁓ Or something might happen tomorrow, and I'm not okay then, but the day is past, so no one's asking. So building it into your ways of operating, your ways of leading, so that it's a regular discussion point and people then become comfortable to be vulnerable to start to share some of these pieces and we can kind of early intervention the crap out of it, if you don't mind me saying, so that we're hearing it as it's happening. But we'll, you know, it helps us to get in earlier to understand what's going on so that we're not letting things grow and fester without even having an awareness that they're sitting there. And it's so simple. Where are you today on a scale of one to 10?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:38)

Next little button's being explicit. Go for it.

Mel (46:58)

So simple.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:04)

The scale of one to 10 because it lets people show how severe something feels to them. And it also shows, okay, how much an impact, how much of an impact has something really had. Because for me, I remember hearing, well, a request of the one to 10 when I maybe had a broken wrist or a broken leg. And then it's a very clear, okay, this hurts, but it's

But I'm not at a 10, I'm not at a breaking point. And if there's the opportunity to use that to label the emotions, I, that's revolutionary to me. And I never thought of that. And I hope that it's really helping other people because sometimes people can say, I'm feeling really stressed out today. And you might respond with, ‘Take it steady, mate.’ You know, it might not.

It might not sink in that things are at a breaking point for someone, or we might assume, gosh, this person's at a breaking point when really we're just being preventative. So you're giving people the opportunity to really articulate where things actually are.

Mel (47:59)

Yeah.

Yeah, and for some people, stress is normal. Like, I know the people in my life who are always stressed. So getting that kind of, okay, is this a 10 out of 10 stress or is it a three out of 10 stress? Like, where are you at in that stress? So you can start to moderate and benchmark. ⁓ Because I think that's important as well. Like, and yeah, I think the articulation of where they're at and using a numerical scale helps to literally measure.

So, okay, you're usually a seven, now you're a three. Wow, okay, what's going on?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:46)

So the three would be worse.

Mel (48:48)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:53)

Yeah, it's a chance to then it's an invitation to discussion then.

Mel (48:54)

Yeah.

100%, 100%. And I think that, you know, and leaders should share where they're at too. I think that's the other critical piece. This isn't about employees just telling you where they're at. You should also be communicating where you're at because the more vulnerable the leader is, the more open their team will be to being vulnerable. And that's how we build vulnerabilities, showing it first. We build trust through showing vulnerability, and the more vulnerability you show, the more authentic you can be. And it creates this really great kind of openness and safety within the team.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:35)

invite you to explore that and I'm sure we'll go a bit beyond an hour because we just have a way of talking about everything, but I invite you to explore the idea of leaders being a bit open about how they are doing because I know sometimes leaders want some things to be private, but there might be a chance to be vague or general and say, look, I'm having a rough day beyond work or something like that. Or maybe they want it to be specific, but

I wanted to also ask you about how some people, leaders or not, will be a little bit worried about being judged or how they look, either online or in the industry, in the community. I think we're all very worried about what people think of us these days.

Mel (50:20)

⁓ 100%, but the best advice I've heard is, or the best quote I've heard is, other people's opinion of you is not your business. ⁓ And it's very hard to put into practice. But when you think about it, it's really true. So if we're showing up authentically and we're being ourselves, we should feel more confident in who we are. And then that then builds more confidence in showing up authentically. ⁓

Everyone is worried about what everyone else is saying about them. ⁓ And there's a biological reason for that. in ancient times, if you weren't part of a group, then you wouldn't survive. If you were an outcast from a group, you wouldn't survive. So, and that mentality still sits in our little caveman brain back here, telling us you need to be part of a group or you're not going to survive. And so, that's why we're so concerned about being judged. We're so concerned about what people think about us. But we're in a modern world now. And I think that we actually need to start to let go of some of those things. Because the results that we get when we're vulnerable are fantastic. And there's research, I think it's by Jacob Morgan, who demonstrated he had some statistics that

the most senior people in an organization were the least vulnerable and the higher you went up in the organization, the less vulnerability you showed. ⁓ And that then makes those very senior leaders inaccessible. They're not, people can't relate to them and it makes it seem like they're not struggling. And I think when we're open about what's going well and what's not going well, we give permission to others to do the same and then we can create better environments for people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:11)

Okay. That's going to be really freeing because again, in community and family and work and anything, if we can free ourselves from the judgment of will people think less of me or will there be a consequence if I say I'm overloaded right now, then it sounds like that's the way for everybody to be okay and to get better results.

Mel (52:32)

Mm.

think so.

I think so.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:41)

Absolutely.

Mel (52:42)

I

have to jump off in a second. so sorry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:47)

Okay. Well, we got so close to now. That's okay.

Okay. The way I like to wrap these up is, okay. The way I like to wrap these up is by asking what are three key lessons or messages that everybody should keep in mind. So basic essentials everybody will need.

Mel (53:08)

Okay, number one, know your strengths and how to best optimize them for your own success. Number two, don't be afraid to be authentic. So turn up, be yourself ⁓ and find your people, right? So where it's safe to do that. And I think number three is,

Be part of the positive work environment. Like really think about how you're showing up and how you're impacting others. ⁓ Because if you're not dealing well with things that are going on around you, you could be impacting other people. you know, I think we all need to take accountability for how we show up and how we lead. ⁓ And we should be conscious of the impact on others and making sure that we can be leaving a positive impact wherever we can.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:00)

Melanie Smith, thank you so much for your precious time. I always learn so much from you and thanks for being willing to be on the podcast.

Mel (54:04)

Thank you.

It's been fantastic. Thank you so much for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:13)

Anytime. Thanks.