Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)
So Catherine will just sort of banter before the more structured side, but so you're in Vietnam and you are surrounded by the coastal sides and you mentioned mountains and there are Buddhas around. So it sounds like you're in a really mindful space.

Catherine Vincent (00:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, if you're conscious, if you're interested in the mindful aspects, if you love nature and the elements, like the breeze and the sand and the sun, yes, it can be a wonderful space. Otherwise, ⁓ there's something for everyone in the city, in any city.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:44)
True, there really is.

I had a look to learn a bit about you online and you've done a bit of everything.

Catherine Vincent (00:53)
Yum.

Yeah, I'm still a holistic educator. I'm still teaching students throughout the year and it's really rewarding. And that's my main income maker and I do the energy healing and intuitive readings on the side and I'd love for that to become full time.

I started getting into being at markets to provide my services while in Denang and I was grateful to get the opportunity to provide energy healing at this retreat for mostly Australian women at the Ultimate Girls Week Away. And from those connections, I've been invited to provide energy healing at more retreats moving forward. So it's just, it's interesting the new chapter I'm stepping into.

trying to study counseling. I'm starting that in over a week and super excited about that as well. Just integrating everything. I hope you can see that, that they're all kind of integrated and moving towards one theme of just let's help people to move forward. Let's help people to heal themselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:02)
Definitely. And I saw that you started off with teaching and then you became an academic. And so you've been teaching people in various ways and then you found conscious wellness for yourself and for other people. And you became a yoga teacher and then you're now aligning that with counseling, which is at times quite a traditional allied health specialty.

Catherine Vincent (02:28)
That's right, yes, it's traditional, but there's so much evidence, ⁓ evidence-based methodologies and practices I'm excited to learn about. And ⁓ I think if we're conscious about... ⁓

the sessions, I think there can be an energy healing aspect without really mentioning it. I was talking to my friend about, because she's an energy healer and she's also a therapist. And we were just talking about how her session was still energy healing. If you invite this wisest, most compassionate self, that's your higher self without saying it. And then you have them do parts where, know, to notice the parts of themselves that might feel icky or whatever it is and to just

give space to it and and maybe let the wisest compassionate self have a conversation with these parts. ⁓ The client reported that ⁓ the parts didn't feel really wounded anymore they felt healed and to me that's energy healing but it's also counseling.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:34)
both. Energy can mean

so many different things, right?

Catherine Vincent (03:38)
For sure, objects are made of energy. So it's just being really and breathing and bringing awareness, just being present.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:49)
Exactly. You mentioned breathing. I have been following yoga, but you're more of an expert than I am. And I know that breathing in very specific ways can be a, important part of yoga. So when you're counseling and when you're supporting people's growth, it sounds like you're able to then draw upon your understanding of breathing to then help people to literally be more present and.

be more comfortable with themselves.

Catherine Vincent (04:21)
Yeah, that's right. think opening with a bit of breath work, a bit of somatic grounding, ⁓ embodiment or connecting to the earth, to the chair. That would be really helpful for people who might not be used to being in their bodies as persistent trauma can have you in your head or in your emotions all the time.

the body might be unfamiliar terrain. So even then just softly, gently, you know, taking baby steps would be wise. So you might not have them do a full body scan if they're not used to being in their body. If it's a scary place, I might just have them focus on their index finger or somewhere small and easy to start with. And with the breathing as well, I might not have them breathe long breaths to start because it might be anxiety inducing. So maybe the first

is just noticing the movement of the body as as they're breathing without really changing anything at all just observing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:23)
Being aware of it, absolutely. I met some Buddhists who just sit and notice the air coming out of the nose. So do you ever do that? Just ask someone to bring the attention to the breath.

Catherine Vincent (05:32)
Yes.

Definitely to different parts of the breath entering your body. So it could be at the nostril. It could be at the throat. It could be at the belly. yeah, just doing that. then noticing the rise and fall of certain body parts, noticing the length of the breath, what your breath could be saying to you in this moment, if you want to tune in that way, or even just counting the breath, just to help you to focus and have that.

repetition, that structure to help you to be in your body and be in the moment. Because our thoughts can just take us in different ways, but it's just allowing for it and not judging it and just coming back to your center is pretty much a big part of it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:30)
Absolutely. You mentioned that when people have ongoing trauma, they can end up stuck in their thoughts. What can that look like? And do you ever see people drowning in their own thoughts without even realizing it?

Catherine Vincent (06:46)
For sure. You know, in acting class, we actually role-played people who were kind of in certain parts of their body, and that can correspond to energy centers. So someone who's really in their head a lot might leave with their head, and when they move, they might walk like this a bit.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:01)
I'll bring you later.

Catherine Vincent (07:03)
Yeah, because they're used to their consciousness being like, my mind is my consciousness, my thinking, my brain, my cerebral, intellectual, my brilliance is in my mind. I am my thoughts. That's what people might identify with and that's how they might move. Whereas people in their heart might have their shoulders back, like just a really open chest and then walk.

with their heart leading as opposed to head. And then someone in their root chakra might walk with their kind of loins leading.

because they identify with that being their consciousness, that physicality. So anyway, that was a really interesting acting exercise. And I highly recommend acting for exploring expression, exploring emotions in the body and exploring archetypes roles. yeah, so someone in their head can be identified that way. ⁓ They might also have that stream of consciousness where it's just an on.

stream of thoughts without much pause. ⁓ They might show that they're in a bit of a silo because they might be better at talking than listening. They're not exactly responding. It's more just verbal or yeah, mind diarrhea that manifests verbally as one thought after another and they might kind of continue with a thought.

when you started sharing your response, they're not kind of, yeah, they're not in the moment. They're still stuck and they'll steamroll over you and continue with their thought even though you're in the midst of sharing your.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:37)
this doc.

Catherine Vincent (08:45)
considerate response. So yeah, that might show, man, I'm really just like, I'm still going from A to B and I haven't finished my thought and I have to get it out even though you've already started speaking. So it's interesting, but I think a lot of us can be in our heads even at certain points in the day, maybe in the workspace. Do you identify with that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:10)
goodness, the constant train of thought. Yes. And I think sometimes it's really tempting to just hold onto anything. It could be a preference even. I really wanted this particular outcome. I really wanted to just focus on this type of work and we can get so set on I, I, I, ⁓ and I think that

In my personal experience, sometimes, sometimes letting my thoughts just explore and get detailed for a little while can help with the creativity, the brainstorming, coming up with maybe a story to tell or a solution to a problem. But I think there's such a difference between, actually, you can probably let me know if there's a difference between

Catherine Vincent (09:55)
Sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:08)
maybe the creative train of thought where for a little while I'm going to just have this creative moment and then get on with the day compared to a stressed out obsessing. What if I'm worried about this?

Catherine Vincent (10:08)
Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, so, you know, they both sound like ⁓ it depends. So, you know, the left brain is about logic and analysis. So with the what ifs, that might be that analytical side jumping in. And then the ⁓

side of the brain is more about creativity and holistic, integrative, symbolic thinking and imagination and

feelings and creativity. So, you the right side of the brain might engage if your emotions are jumping in and taking over. So to me, that sounds like the use of both unless, you know, your what ifs are very kind of logic and analytical and black and white. Then yeah, that's probably you're probably left brain over analysis mode. But then if it's more like, my God, I feel this, I feel that I'm feeling feeling ⁓ and you're using your imagination and overdrive with the what

that it's more like, you're kind of imbalanced in your right brain and you're overusing that. So does this sound like you're using a bit of both or hanging out more in one than the other?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:32)
Gosh, look, I'm revealing too much about myself, initially, so when I'm, for sure, we all are. When I'm in a crisis or someone is confronting me or that's how it seems, then what I find is in that moment, it's like my head goes into problem solving mode of I'm just going to sort this out, just piece the puzzle together. And that's where

Catherine Vincent (11:35)
We're all like this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:00)
I can't relate to other people's mentalities of during a crisis, emergency, whatever, they will just be maybe freezing up, panicking, just getting all into the emotions because I'll just say, okay, we're going to do this. We're going to do that. We'll do that. And then everything should be fine. And so and so needs to do this. Awesome. Okay. Let's get on with it. Whereas some folks will be, you know, just scared and start.

Catherine Vincent (12:23)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah, they're in free

state. Yeah, definitely. Or they're in flight. They're in flight or free state, which yeah, which I have been and you might be in fight, like you might have like your adrenaline going in your

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:34)
Bye!

Catherine Vincent (12:41)
autonomic nervous system has been activated, your left brain and the problem solving. I mean, it's really important. It's needed. And at least you're moving and you're getting things done. It sounds like you're a director too, which is really cool. But if you ever wanted to balance that, if the person in ⁓ flight or free state wanted to come out of that, they could slow down their breathing. They could breathe through their left nostril to activate the right side of the brain. So just close the right nostril and just find peace and calm. ⁓

And focus. ⁓

but it would give you an aliveness too for someone in free state. then ⁓ for someone, it also helps with someone who's ⁓ in the fight state, like the kind of activated autonomic nervous system state. But ⁓ generally, if you want to find peace, you're going to breathe through the left side of the nostril. If you want to activate more, if you want to like get ready for a soccer match or get ready for like passing your bar exam or whatever, then you might get the energy going.

that you naturally have and you breathe through your right nostril to activate the left side of the brain.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:53)
that work doing the opposite sides?

Catherine Vincent (13:56)
Well, the left side of the brain corresponds to the right side of the body. The right side of the brain corresponds to the left side of the body. So it's just human anatomy. It's interesting. And the parasympathetic nervous system is activated. That rest, digest, focus, and heal part of you that's activated when you breathe slowly, when you massage the sides of your neck because you activate your vagus nerve, the longest nerve in your body.

but also when you chant and hum and sing and dance.

When you gargle water, you're activating your parasympathetic nervous system. So all this activates that rest, digest, focus and heal part of you. But I think the simplest way is definitely breathing slowly. Everyone has access to that. Just add a second or two to your breathing, right? And you can extend the lengths of your exhales. And so I think that would help you to find balance. ⁓ And then for the person in free state, it would help them to come out of free state.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:00)
Awesome, I love the.

Catherine Vincent (15:01)
So it's great

for everyone. You could breathe through both too. Like alternate nostril breathing and yoga. That balances. Yeah. Yeah, it's something. It's just, practical. gets things going. Like slowing down the breath is key to finding that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:06)
Yeah, absolutely.

You came for very specific solutions.

Catherine Vincent (15:21)
inner peace, inner calm, and that allows everything else to fall into place, like the physical, it jump starts the physical, mental, and emotional health journey. If you just slow down your breath and you're regulating your nervous system and the alternate nostril breathing, you know, where you inhale through left, you might hold and then exhale through right nostril and then maybe hold a bit and then you inhale through right

hold and then you exhale through left and you could look up alternate nostril breathing online but ⁓ yeah

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:56)
I love alternate to nostril, unless

I have a sniffle.

Catherine Vincent (16:00)
Yeah, yeah, I got a little sniffle too. I didn't get much sleep last night. yeah, it just balances both. It activates both sides of the brain. So it's perfect for everyone. We all need it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:12)
We do all need it. And what was I going to say? So within the fight mode, and it's such an interesting word because sometimes we can just be heightened and approaching instead of withdrawing, even though we're not thinking that we want to have conflict and that sort of fight. But within that, I saw a conflict earlier this year where I just wanted to simplify and get freedom and just, okay.

sort things out in a one or two step thing and other people went very detailed, very bureaucratic, let's go through everything with fine tooth comb. And it's almost like they felt more control when they were reading everything about something. And it's almost like those moments when we want to understand something and then we get obsessed with

Knowing every single detail about something. So have you seen a fight mode or something else where someone just wants to get into that much detail in their thoughts and their approach to something?

Catherine Vincent (17:12)
Yes.

Yes, yes. I mean, I've experienced it myself where it's I think it's just a bit of maybe a lack of confidence when you're supposed to be the subject matter expert, or you're expected to be and then you're, you know, you don't feel like you have enough information. So I've very much been there. And I think that that's a left brain issue. It's just a little bit of, I think unnecessary logic, like an if then logic about, you know, if I don't read all of this,

I'm not going to be the subject matter expert or I won't know how to solve the problem when sometimes um, you know, I've heard the saying like Knowing 70 % is enough. That's what my partner likes to tell me that someone else said some some tech, bro Said yeah, I don't need to know 100 % of the information to make a decision 70 % is enough because 100 % is it's it's a lot of time spent so Bringing in the right brain. I would say the symbolic integrative thinking would be great to help you to

zoom

out, whereas the left brain analysis, the analysis paralysis might be like too much zooming in, like who has the time for all that? Maybe Chachi Biti does, but maybe like only AI at this point. There's not enough time to cover every stone, to turn over every single pebble. Maybe just some major rocks? Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:37)
That's not.

Absolutely.

And sometimes there is no a hundred percent. It doesn't exist, especially with creative things or with the legal things where perhaps there are two right answers to everything. There is no end destination. Do you think so?

Catherine Vincent (18:52)
Yes.

For sure.

Yeah, yeah, think so. think so. like part of this is like you have to kind of lean into what lights you up as well as what makes sense logically and analytically. It's like you really do have to consider both aspects like what your intuition is telling you, ⁓ taking your emotions into account if that has served you before. I understand some people have really

wild and wooly emotions and so they're not yet you know great for helping you to make decisions but for others who feel like the the emotions are more integrated I think they can be super helpful because the emotions can help you to figure out what

your truth is, what your boundaries and values are, because when you get angry or scared or sad about something, that's just an indication of this is my value. And hey, like that's my boundary, because I feel upset that it has been crossed. And that's clearly not their boundary. That's their truth that those are their values. So emotions are really special. Yeah. Once you're ready to connect with them and express them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:08)
Do you find that since because you are a yoga teacher, do you find that teaching people to sit with their emotions can help with the other forms of teaching that you do? I'm not sure if you're still doing the tutoring or teaching in some way, or even when you're studying, you're still doing that. Do the two cross over in that way?

Catherine Vincent (20:27)
yeah, yeah I'm still doing.

I'm so...

Yeah, sometimes I do. depends. Like sometimes the students I teach are ready for that kind of thing, or at least like conversations about it. ⁓ It helps to have a family that is spiritually aligned. You know, they're already into that kind of stuff. They provide energy healing for their children or they do yoga and mindfulness ⁓ as a practice every night, gratitude, things like that. But ⁓ yeah, I do.

I do integrate both. What was your specific question?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:06)
Oh, I was wondering, well, we looked at how people can drown in the details of something or people going to need 100%. So especially when people are studying or working maybe in the organizations you're working with anything like that, maybe people are always aiming for 100 % in their work and putting pressure on themselves for that instead of letting go.

Catherine Vincent (21:11)
Yes.

Yes.

Right, right. And you mentioned the role of the emotions. Like, do you kind of teach that?

And I do, I have in holistic education, I have used social emotional learning through drama, ⁓ drama club, through improv club, through creative movement, ⁓ exploring ⁓ different emotions and characters, I've done a cool improv activity where it's called character dial up and we just lean into a statement and we dial up the emotion as we go around the circle and they express ⁓ the emotion through the statement.

That's it. I'm going to clown college and you start with like the neutral like deadpan no emotion and then you dial it up to like

That's it, I'm going to cloud college, know, like something like just really insane and they have fun with it. Yeah, they just have fun with it. And it's like, it's comical too, but they just get to play with safe expression of emotions and degrees of it, degrees of intensity. And you know, the humor, the lightness helped because it, you know, once we express our emotions, it helps to come back down and also be able to see the lightness and the humor, the playfulness and how you can come down, you know, when you don't have to stay in

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:15)
increasing.

Catherine Vincent (22:41)
space of you know the dark depths the intensity forever and you can even ⁓ laugh at yourself too or just have some fun with it and and dance with it dance with the emotion if you need to ⁓ have some fluidity around emotional expression and around that particular emotion so yes I've taught it in that sense with the students with multiple exceptionalities that I worked with in Toronto and

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:07)
What does that

mean?

Catherine Vincent (23:09)
just students with ⁓ multiple learning needs, with learning differences, neurodivergence, students with autism, ADHD, ⁓ learning disabilities, and mental health diagnoses, giftedness, and things like that. So they just have different learning needs and multiple needs. They have multiple learning needs. So that's how we say they have multiple exceptionalities, multiple needs. ⁓

Yeah, like the exception from the group, right? So they do stand out. They are outliers, right? But they are outliers in ⁓ many different ways, each student. So they're high needs. So yeah, think definitely bringing the emotions that is important. And then in the sense of teaching a yoga lesson, yes, ⁓ the emotions come in through maybe some mindfulness activities where we explore the physical self and we check in to see what's going on there. And then the mental self.

just to see, how are my thoughts doing? What's the state of my mind like? Is there fogginess? Am I sharp? Is it monkey mind or peaceful? And then we jump to what is one emotion I'm feeling right now? Where does it show up in the body? Is there another emotion?

and how am I doing socially in this environment? So having people explore the different aspects of self helps them to find balance if they're hanging out too much in one aspect of self. And it's usually mind or emotions, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:40)
It's one or the other we're thinking or we're feeling. One of the two.

Catherine Vincent (24:43)
Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:46)
Yeah, and sometimes we don't even know the difference. So part of what you're doing is to help people to observe. We're in our thoughts, in our feelings, and we need to step back and see what is going on in my head. Is that a big part of it, to step back and look at ourselves?

Catherine Vincent (24:56)
Yeah!

It is!

Yeah, yeah, it is. And I'm fluidly jumping between the selves and I'm so with you and that's why I love teaching this just because a lot of people don't know what...

emotion is. You know, just focusing on the four emotions, what they're feeling. Like, okay, they might know what an emotion is, but when they're asked to check in with what am I feeling right now, they might not be able to articulate that. Yeah, it's probably some kind of misery or anger, like some kind of sadness, but they just can't articulate it because they don't know how that feels in their body. They don't know how to identify it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:27)
I don't know.

Catherine Vincent (25:41)
and to allow expression of it because a lot of us are used to just tamping down like it's repressing, know, keeping the lid on in the pressure cooker. It's just better to deny to eat or to spend, spend, spend, spend or a distract, you know, watch that Netflix, ⁓ socialize, drink, do drugs. It's there's so many distractions, right? Doom scroll, selfies.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:08)
Are you seeing, are you seeing people

distracting themselves even more now because we have so much happening on our screens and perhaps people are living busy lives where we can just do more as well to distract ourselves.

Catherine Vincent (26:22)
I'm not ⁓ like checking in with the social media communities in that way. Like I'm not really scrolling too much. When I do scroll, it's through a curated feed. So I'm always following people in wellness and experts, ⁓ psychologists, things like that, like physical therapists. So people who have something to share about uplifting people in the areas of wellness and beyond, right? So when I am scrolling, yeah, there's performativity. There's

⁓ even from the coaches and all that but and and there's also yes anxiety shared yes I see that and that's but this is from the experts so I imagine it must be

even worse with people who haven't studied, you know, how to rise up in that way, like in yourself and in the communities, right? Lift up the community. So yeah, I think it must be really stressful. Like I hear things from people I talk to, from students I work with. I do work with a lot of Gen Z and Gen Alpha. Like I teach from like grade three to university. ⁓

So yeah, I hear a lot. There's a lot of, yeah, I have anxiety. I have this, I have that. My therapist says this. So yeah, I have this brain coach. So, and this is what's going on in America. You know, I have a lot of American students, but I also have a lot of students from around the world.

and clients as well, energy healing clients. and energy healer friends from around the world. So yeah, I think people are really dysregulated. It's tough. It's tough to be in this environment with these corrupt systems or just the systems that don't work, you know, that need to be dismantled to navigate that. How are you finding it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:07)
Absolutely. ⁓

well, I was going to say that you mentioned the, is what's going on. And we're so aware of what's happening in the whole world. And even today I was getting a direct notification about a crisis in a local space that I'm not even involved with. our attention is spread so thin. There was a time, at least where I live, there was a time decades ago when there were three or four TV channels and that was it.

And you might watch TV for an hour a day. And if someone chose to buy a newspaper, then sure. And I think that we're getting so overloaded with, especially if we're extra empathetic, I have always, I have always felt everything very extremely or very sensitively as well. I've been sensitive, but also just everything feels intense. That's the word. Whether it's emotions or physical feelings.

Catherine Vincent (28:51)
Yes.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:07)
And so when I'm realizing that a friend has this going on, a community has this going on, or that country has that happening, and then suddenly there's an intense worry for everybody when you can't control that. I also wanted to ask about some of those different groups that you teach. It's not very often that I get to talk to someone who teaches such a broad range.

So in terms of feeling the feelings, it because something is happening directly to us or because we're maybe absorbing everybody else's concerns too much, either way, internal or external, are you seeing different ⁓ strategies and different concerns or anything like that with the emotional journeys for the students who have the extra needs and also the very young children? How are they all handling?

their emotions in this odd world.

Catherine Vincent (30:09)
Sure, yeah, so with the young children, ⁓ I think there's a sense of isolation and loneliness. ⁓ But you know, that's because I teach students online, like I teach homeschooled students, and then, you know, they don't have that access to that school community. ⁓ Some don't, some do. Like I do teach some students who go to a school as well, but still, there's, yeah, there's a sense of disconnection, and they really do need opportunities to make friendships and also to

Demonstrate leadership and I not every student gets that opportunity just depends on the kind of school you go to and Regarding what you said about being empathic. ⁓ I'm also an empath and until you recognize that in yourself and ⁓ manage it it might be really difficult to navigate large spaces crowds bars churches hospitals and things like that the mall because ⁓ Your aura is so porous. You're open

to receiving, taking on other people's energies, other people's gunk, their distortions, their debris in their aura. And that's unfortunate. But you can always ask your higher self, for example, or if you believe in ⁓ Source, just a higher power, the higher power, to just help you to remove it. You can just ask them, even just, hey, can you take this from me? You know, can you take other people's stuff from me right now?

And you can also do a bit of a visualization. Imagine roots going down from your feet, going straight down into the center of the earth. And just trust that all that stuff that isn't yours is going down through the roots. Just imagine it happening and have the intention. Say it out loud if you like. It all helps. Use your eyes to look down your body and trust that it's happening. I think use your hands if you like. Eyes, hands, intention, thoughts, verbalizing all helps. Calling on source or your

your

highest power or another divine guide like an ascended master or an archangel that you're personally connected to that would help you as an empath but also ⁓ actively turning it off when you're in these environments because you know you're here to navigate your journey your lessons you're not here to be this like uncontrolled empath

for your whole life and be useless because like you are useless when you're like that right because you're just like I'm just like I feel awful yeah and just like you can't navigate your world effectively and you want to be able to and so to do that you have to turn it off so to turn it off you focus on you like you bring your consciousness not to everyone and that skateboarder passing by who doesn't care about you but who just gave you all his stuff like you need to turn the dial down on

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:41)
It's overload.

Catherine Vincent (33:03)
the other and turn the dial up on you. So you need to bring it in again, bring it to your different selves, bring it to my physical self, right? Just check in. All you have to do is bring your consciousness to your feet, legs, bring it up. Or just like ⁓ tense up your whole body a few times, like hold for a few breaths, release, and already you're more into you, right? You're in your body.

And so it's going to be hard to pick up other people's stuff when you're focused on you. So you focus on yourself physically, then switch to how am I doing mentally? And then how am I doing emotionally? What's one feeling that I have right now? How am I doing socially? You know, I feel like socializing or I'm feeling pretty introspective right now. I'd rather be at home. So like already that was about a minute or two of just focusing on the different selves.

And that's really hard to pick up stuff from other people when you're doing that. Because you have to look at them. You have to make eye contact with them, right? That's part of it. ⁓ I mean, you also have to be in their presence. But ⁓ as long as you're doing that and maybe you're super grounded, you're not untethered, you're...

you're focused and you're in your body. All of these elements help in not picking up stuff from other people. It helps to kind of look at their eyebrows instead of their eyes. You can download stuff by looking at their eyes, right? So if you look at their eyebrows, ⁓

People who are not empaths don't really take other people in in this way. You they don't stand there and like gawk with eyes open at the random, right? They're just doing their own thing. It's all about them and they're shopping and like they're getting their Starbucks or whatever it is they're doing. And they're not even looking at you.

It's all about them, right? And their needs. And if you kind of move more towards that, because you're important too, like you're number one, like you're the main character. So it's having main character energy, right? And until you make yourself the main character, you're going to be someone's doormat, right? And in the case of an empath, like they don't even know you're the doormat. They're just dropping your stuff into you and then like...

you're rendered ineffective, right? So it really is being self-absorbed, but like to fill your cup so that you can continue helping people. Because empaths are here. They chose to be an empath for a reason, right? ⁓ That's something they signed up for.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:36)
Interesting. I love all of this so much because you're teaching us that we can be more useful when we don't absorb too much from other people. And it's partly about our ability to be present and not overload ourselves mentally, physically, emotionally, not piling on so much. so lifting some of that off, you mentioned the higher power. I liked a

Catherine Vincent (35:56)
Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:06)
a phrase for that that I heard years ago, that you need to have faith in something greater than yourself. Because I've definitely believed in whatever my mind can imagine a god might be. I know it's not a bloke with a beard in the sky, but whatever we think it might be, but also the something greater than yourself is handy if

If there are moments when I don't know what I believe, I look at the water at the beach and it goes out so far and I know that expanse of water is bigger than me. And seeing that, reminds me there is something beyond myself because we end up in our own little bubble. Sometimes years ago, looking out of the window in an aeroplane, I'd say, there's a bigger picture beyond my little bubble that I'm in. So that really helps to know, okay,

hand it over to something because what you're telling us is if we hand other people's problems over to the universe that has been unfolding without our complete help, the universe will cope in some way or it will unfold however it's going to unfold. If you hand that over then it means that we're not taking it all on personally.

Catherine Vincent (37:31)
Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's not ours to carry. We have our own things to deal with from our childhood and so on and then all our goals that we have and looking ahead, There's a lot for us to deal with and taking on other people's stuff gucks up your aura, right?

It keeps you from having balanced energy centers, your chakras. And so that's ultimately harming yourself to allow other people's to gunk it up. Like there's no point in moving around in this way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:06)
Absolutely. You need to free yourself to then become more useful and to then create the right value for what you can do in a healthy and sustainable way.

Catherine Vincent (38:16)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. It's all about sustainability, longevity.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:23)
Longevity for sure. Which version of this can actually go on for a while? I'm really keen to ask about your personal experiences that led you to this wellness journey, because I read about a couple of things that happened years ago for you. I'm wondering if you want to share any of your personal stories that, that might've influenced where you ended up.

Catherine Vincent (38:52)
Sure, so definitely ⁓ trauma, persistent trauma over the years ⁓ was difficult. I my parents were trying their best and... ⁓

you know, it was, it's fine in the end because I learned to overcome it. know, systemically too, growing up in Canadian society ⁓ in the 80s and 90s was not the best place to be, especially in the suburbs. So there were a lot of reasons why I had a lot of trauma. ⁓ But, you know, it was just overcoming it. Like, recognizing that I was in free state, like Eeyore or Daria, just my system was kind

of offline, was kind of like a walking zombie, knowing that there was so much more because I could see it. I could see people as if I was... ⁓

behind castle walls, ⁓ looking out through thick glass windows if I was in a home, ⁓ people just smiling and joyful and setting goals and planning for the future. And then I was just thinking like, why don't I have access to that? Like, I just, why can't I experience that? And I knew there was so much more to life. And ⁓ that's what helped me to start on that journey, just to try to get out of Free State.

And the first step was slowing down my breath and getting into my body.

And then beyond that, there was more, of course, there's just, you know, more somatic things, expressive arts to help me to explore ⁓ emotions and coming out of rigid ways of thinking and feeling and moving. ⁓ So the expressive arts was really important. That's why I ended up studying expressive arts for a little bit. ⁓ And then...

the healing, the energy healing to remove stuff because you can do all that. You can do all the yoga and it might, it does remove energy, but I think energy healing is very specific, it's surgical. Whereas yoga, it's great, it's really great, but someone can do yoga for years and not really move forward because they might not be doing it in a spiritual way. They might be doing it like a gym workout.

and not focusing on chakras at all or just focusing on doing a flowy graceful ⁓ vinyasa flow that looks good. It looks pretty and it's Instagram attractive but ⁓ they didn't exactly do anything except get more agile, more fit, which is amazing. That's great. Again, gym workout, right? ⁓ So yeah, if yoga is done in a way where you're focusing on your chakras, ⁓

there can be more of an energy healing aspect to it. mean, yoga is energy healing. The way the poses are ⁓ formed focuses on their chakras and on the flow of energy. ⁓ It's just, I don't think there are many yoga teachers in the West at least, maybe in the East, but like in the West, I'm not seeing that focus. It's more just, let's do this intermediate vinyasa flow.

Let's do this power flow.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:17)
wondering, I'm

wondering if someone is following a practice, maybe they are new to the practices or they are just following along to someone else's guidance, but they want to really sort out their emotions a bit, maybe defrost so they're not in their freeze state or process something.

Do you suggest they could try to identify their emotions as they are moving through things? Do you suggest people could be praying to whatever they believe in or handing things over as they are moving through this practice? What do you suggest?

Catherine Vincent (43:02)
do think yoga is a great way because it's gentle movement and there's breath work and there's guided meditation. It is a moving meditation. It just depends on how it's guided, but ⁓ usually in the yoga studios or in the yoga videos online, you will have many of these elements. So I would recommend yoga or really anything that lights them up. So doing an activity that lights them up, improv.

whatever it is, horseback riding, that brings back that sense of aliveness. So part of that is ⁓ noticing what lights your eyes up. But the problem with free state is like you've gotten into a state where the lights are out. So part of it is also you gotta slow down your breath to tone your vagus nerve and bring your parasympathetic nervous system online again. Like just slow down the breathing. I think that's the first step. Slow down the breathing and start

Start

scanning your body. Notice what's happening in your body. Check in with your ⁓ right thumb tip, your left elbow. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm asking you to check in so you can check in right now. You can check in with specific body parts. How is the top of your right ear doing? How is the bottom of your left nostril? How is the bottom of your chin?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:10)
Can we demo that for a second? How would someone do that?

Catherine Vincent (44:30)
How are your collarbones doing? How's your rib cage doing? And now your lower back, the bottom of your spine, your glutes, your big toe on the left side, and your outer right pinky. So just being able to check in and bring your consciousness to these areas and notice, what's happening here? Do I feel anything? And it helps to wiggle it. You could wiggle the part.

And if this exercise feels really uncomfortable and unsafe, it's because, you know, there's been a lot of stuff that's happened and so the body is not safe right now. So maybe you focus on one part that feels safe. Maybe it's part of your hand, because you're used to looking at your hands and using your hands. So maybe you just focus on your, ⁓ point your finger on the tip.

you move it around and you bring your awareness there. So you just start where you're comfortable. You start with small steps and then if you're comfortable you start moving into the body scan. So maybe you scan your body from toe to head. ⁓ If you like you can tense up and release. You know might tense up that part of your body as you scan it so you might be tensing up your feet holding for a few breaths and then releasing then you move to your calves.

You might integrate the other ⁓ parts of your body as well. And then as you move up your body, you do your thighs and pretty much all of your legs. Or maybe you just isolate your thighs, bring in your glutes and you're just tensing up, holding for a few breaths, releasing on the exhale and noticing the difference, noticing that release of tension. And you keep moving up your body. Let's do pelvis and low back now. And you can integrate those glutes. You can integrate the rest of your legs if you like.

just holding as long as you like, then releasing, then we move to the torso, maybe bringing in your abs, your chest, your upper back, your mid-back, or just one card at a time.

then you bring in your shoulders, your traps, your arms. You might be making fists.

And you might be tensing up as hard as you can. Maybe it's just a light tensing and you're releasing. might do it a couple of times in a place that's particularly tense. maybe with your upper back, you're just really focusing on that area. And maybe you're adding some light movements as well for that area. You might be rooting down through your feet, maybe shuffling back and forth from sit bone to sit bone. You might tip your pelvis forwards and backwards. So these light movements, these expressive intuitive movements also

to you to be in your body. And you just start with small, small movements. That's it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:15)
Awesome.

small movements. have a question about the creativity and you have been exploring that so much with the improv, the acting, things like that. I'm wondering

I'm wondering in creative expression to loosen up and feel a bit less frozen or release the tension. I'm wondering if you have been encouraging people to create without the pressure of perfection or achievement. And I ask that because a lot of people think that they have to be an expert at some of these creative areas or

You know, I grew up with the assumption that I was bad at art because I felt uncoordinated. I thought that I didn't coordinate my drawing enough, so bad at creating full stop and it becomes a limiting belief. So whether people are making music or speaking, things like that, do you ever see that it can help to encourage people to do those things without any expectations attached?

Catherine Vincent (48:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It's definitely something that I do myself. When I studied expressive arts therapy, it wasn't about being the best, making a Mona Lisa. It was just about expressing for a variety of purposes, Like expressing to explore what you actually feel and think about something, exploring what might emerge from the subconscious or from divine forces. And it's just a way to learn more about yourself as well. ⁓

including the shadow aspects that you might explore. yeah, definitely expressing over performativity and ⁓ it's healthier, right? People don't want perfection unless you're a perfectionist and like you're really hard on yourself, right? Like, and so like it's people who are there who are looking for that. But I think everyone else is appreciative of expression just for the sake of it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:28)
Absolutely. Expression in any form can really help. I'm wondering in the last five or 10 minutes, what lessons would you suggest to anyone who is making a great change in life professionally or personally and trying to make sure that they can observe their thoughts and feelings? What would you suggest to someone who's dealing with a lot of change?

Catherine Vincent (49:59)
To bring in balance, so I would suggest someone who is dealing with a lot of change should bring in structure and stability and security in some way. Maybe it's the same morning routine with your favorite cup of coffee or tea. Maybe it's your morning gratitude, your morning affirmations in front of the mirror. ⁓

Bring in elements of safety and stability. Bring in elements where you can root down. So maybe it's like a little bit of journaling about that.

And could have just a section for mind and then emotions and like another section for what makes me feel safe. Maybe it's a little bit of expressive exploration around that through art, like just all the changing things happening and what that's like. And then making another piece of art where it's like, this is what I want to bring in, you know, and bringing in more maybe geometric elements and a mountain, things that represent stability, whatever it is that comes through, right? But you might be exploring.

it through dance, through music. So might like dance chaotically to things and just feel like discombobulated but then like you'll you'll change the music or it's a song that just switches halfway through into like this really stable slow like maybe now it's monks chanting and you're just like you're still and you're just breathing and you're like like you're just doing your thing like be expressive and yeah explore thank you yeah just explore

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:31)
Nice chance.

Catherine Vincent (51:35)
through a way that you want to, whether it's journaling or ⁓ archetypes, role playing, ⁓ playing music. Like you might be maybe, you don't need an instrument. You could just sing, sing, make a little ditty, a little tune ⁓ that changes key. Yeah, yeah, you could do sand play or drum on the table. Like it could be a drum, like a really chaotic, like drum beat. And then it slows down like.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:53)
sing along. I'll tell you the...

going to shoot.

the desk.

Catherine Vincent (52:05)
Yeah, exactly. So expressing can help, but ⁓ also I think inviting your higher self to witness where you're at and where you want to go. ⁓ Manifest it. Pray. Those are two different things. Use your power as a manifestor.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:29)
What does that involve to you?

Catherine Vincent (52:29)
create a goal

and it involves ⁓ definitely being resourceful. It involves ⁓ going through a process. It could be a cyclical or a spiral process. Maybe it's more linear. It's different for everyone, but that process definitely involves. ⁓

Developing a goal and intention refining it. Maybe some action steps. Maybe there's a bit of a flow in between Maybe it starts with a flow because you don't know what your goal is So you're just flowing just flowing until you develop a goal You have to notice what you want first, right? You have to notice what your needs and desires are And some people aren't there yet, right? They're just kind of in robot mode doing what society has brainwashed them to do

But once you've broken out of that, the brainwashing and you've developed a goal, yeah, from there, like, let's make a smart goal and then let's create some action stuff. like, yeah, it's a little bit of left brain stuff. And then you might cut it up into sub goals ⁓ throughout the month. It might be a monthly goal. There might be a yearly goal. And then you break it up into weekly goals. But then just having that goal in mind, maybe it's just one overarching goal ⁓ that you just follow each year. ⁓

and maybe in different spheres of your life, like nutrition, sleep, ⁓ you know, when it comes to like navigating my natural cycles as a woman, things like that. ⁓

or just like ambitions in my career. So just different goals for different spheres and then like you're just holding to that one goal for each sphere until you feel like you've mastered it. Then you move on to the next goal for that sphere. Now that can be written down for potent manifestation. You can do little rituals around it. You could really amplify the manifestation around the full moon, for example. ⁓

So yeah, there are lots of ways that you can explore manifestation, but praying is just straight up praying. It's just talking to maybe your higher self. It's maybe talking to the higher power or the divine guide and asking for things and just having conversations, asking for messages. Ask them to co-create with you. Yeah, asking for a sign.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:42)
asking for a sign. Co-create.

Catherine Vincent (54:47)
Yeah, just ask them to co-create with you before you ⁓ go into that workspace and deal with those difficult people or whatever it is you're doing, a difficult conversation where you have to perform, right? You have to do your best. So ask Source to co-create with you and ask for the very best outcome to happen. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:12)
You can absolutely ask and you mentioned the highest self. I don't know precisely what that looks like for everybody, but I'm wondering, maybe it would help to even have trust in the better versions of ourselves. Trust that we can show up how we need to instead of maybe the frozen up or the struggling versions of ourselves. So even have faith in that version of us. Think so?

Catherine Vincent (55:38)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah that works. Yeah, by myself I just spent the very best version of you that you know, it's it's the part of you that's always there ⁓ beyond the thoughts and emotions and physical self

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:58)
the version of you beyond your thoughts and emotions because those things pass. We can feel an emotion one moment and then a different emotion another moment and the thoughts can flow through and go but there's a you that stays despite all of those things.

Catherine Vincent (56:07)
Yes.

Exactly, yeah, and your thoughts can also be quite rigid. know, if your belief, if your belief system is quite narrow, then like your thoughts aren't the best part of you, the best version of you, a lot of the time. It can be like the mean girl version of you bullying yourself, beating yourself up, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:31)
true we are.

You're your worst critic, apparently.

Catherine Vincent (56:37)
Yeah,

yeah, we can be.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:40)
We can be. Look, we're getting pretty close to an hour and you've taught me and taught everybody so much. I'm wondering in perhaps two to three sentences, what's your key lesson that everybody should learn today? Something actionable.

Catherine Vincent (56:59)
something actionable. I think you should start noticing what lights you up and slow down your breathing and do what lights you up. So slow down your breathing to bring in that sense of inner calm to regulate your nervous system and to start balancing physical, mental and emotional and social selves.

because ⁓ it's going to improve in every sphere once you slow down your breath to over five seconds on the inhales and exhales. The second thing is notice what lights you up because most adults aren't there. They're just brainwashed. going through the motions. They're doing what they think they should be doing, but they're not noticing what their soul actually loves. And this can be linked to childhood. might be, love rollerblading or I love race car driving.

or whatever it is. I love making ice cream. So just do it. Just notice what lights you up and don't be logical about it and just do the thing that lights you up that's unique to your soul expression and that will bring more joy to you and it'll manifest more you know joy, gratitude, abundance, all the good things, fulfillment.

And it's a key. Noticing what lights you up is the key to, you know, helping you to find your true vocation and to find fulfillment in your personal life as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:33)
amazing. Catherine Vincent, thank you so much for your teachings. It has been great to hear from you today.

Catherine Vincent (58:41)
It was a pleasure, Melanie. I'll see you soon.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:44)
Awesome.

Okay.