Podcast Episode: Karen Iverson on how she survived cancer and wrote a book

Transcript

Karen E Iverson 

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Okay. Karen Iverson, welcome to the podcast. It is a privilege to have you on the show. Hello.

Karen E Iverson (00:11)

Hello, thank you so much for having me. It's an honour to be here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:16)

You have so many stories and so many experiences. We were just talking about how you moved from New York City to Oklahoma. You say, let's start, let's start with that journey for a bit of a background to introduce yourself.

Karen E Iverson (00:26)

Yes, Oklahoma.

Sure. So I was living in New York City, and then I spent time in New Jersey, and I was looking for a new job, a new career. And I was talking to my mom about it, and she actually went to her neighbour's house. They were in Tennessee, and her neighbour's sister, who was a superintendent.

And at the time, I was thinking of getting back into teaching. I had been a teacher before, but I had stopped teaching. And this superintendent said she would love to become my mentor. And so she spoke to my mom, and my mom was like, 'Well, now, Karen has had some difficult experiences and is not quite certain she does or doesn't want to become a teacher again.' And so she says, ‘Well, I would love to mentor her.’

So she becomes a mentor for me, and she almost immediately wants me to move to Oklahoma, which is where she was from. And I was like, well, I don't know anything about Oklahoma other than the musical and the wind goes sweeping down the plane. And so I originally said, 'No, I don't think I'm moving to Oklahoma.’ And then as time passed, it eventually just became more present and abundant and knowledgeable to me that I needed to move to Oklahoma. So I followed God and went to Oklahoma.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:04)

It sounds like you needed a bit of faith to go to a place that you didn't really know so well.

Karen E Iverson (02:11)

I think you're right. Yeah. ⁓ It was, I mean, it was like moving to a totally different universe and moving across the country by myself, where I really didn't know anybody. I knew the superintendent from just working with her on the phone a couple of times as a mentor. So it was really, you know, stepping into a totally unknown world.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:36)

Did you? I want to get into the other stories that I've heard about soon, but how did you find community and find your people after moving to a new place? That's an important lesson a lot of people need to figure out at some point in life.

Karen E Iverson (02:52)

Yes, it is. And it can be very scary to move someplace where you don't know anybody or even where you just know one or two people. I really found that one thing that was initial was that I knew people at my job. So I started to get to know coworkers ⁓ and then coworkers introduced me to other people. So, for example, I had been in a band ⁓ in New Jersey before I moved to Oklahoma.

And one of my coworkers knew somebody who was in a band in Tulsa. And so she set us up so we could get introduced to one another. And he basically swept me under his wing. And basically he didn't have a place for me in his band, but he tried to hook me up with other bands. And he also brought me to his family's events. So he and his wife and his kids would invite me to their family Thanksgiving meals.

And those types of things. So that was the first thing was just, you know, allowing, allowing the Lord and allowing, you know, the relationships to develop. ⁓ and then I also started after that, just finding meetups. So I used that app at one point for meetup and found this group called Bold Betty's. And it was a bunch of women who enjoyed doing adventurous things together.

So we went hiking. Uh-huh. We went hiking and ⁓ that was fun. And then I also then developed a relationship with a local church and started meeting people with the church ⁓ and getting plugged in that way, beginning to serve in the church. But it takes time. You know, it's not something that happens overnight. And so you have to be patient and spend some lonely moments, you know, where

Where you're questioning, I make the right choice? Did my move here really be the right thing? Was it really the right thing for me to do or not? And my best friend at the time, he was living in Canada with his wife, and he and I had known each other for a long, long time before he had gotten married. And he said to me one day, “ Karen, you've made the biggest mistake of your life. And I was like, ‘Wow, yeah, yeah.’

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:13)

Well, that's unsupported.

Karen E Iverson (05:17)

And I was like, whoa, you know, and I was like, well, I don't think it's quite that bad, you know. But, you know, now I live here permanently and I've really enjoyed it. I've moved around a little bit, developed relationships at a couple of different churches, but now I'm really settled where I am ⁓ and in a new career as well from that time. And I really feel at home here and comfortable here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:48)

Pure curiosity, I'm just wondering what types of churches were they?

Karen E Iverson (05:55)

So they were mostly non-denominational churches, but I did end up at a Baptist church for a while. I was not Baptist, but I ended up going to the Baptist church. The gentleman I was mentioning, who ⁓ was in the band, started going to a Baptist church with his wife and family. And I ended up going there, and that was a whole other story. ⁓ He and his wife and I were going to go to a movie night they were having.

And it was out on a lawn. And here I was used to going to lawns in New York City in Central Park, where you go with, you know, a blanket, right? And you sit on the blanket in the middle of the Great Lawn. And that's all I had. I didn't own a lawn chair. Yeah. And so I go to this movie, and right before I get there, the gentleman and his wife call me and tell me they're sick and they're not coming.

And I'm like, what? You're not coming. What am I going to do? I don't know anybody. And here I am going to this movie by myself. And I'm just there. And Holy Spirit says to me, go. You're here. You've got to go. You've got to go. So I walked up to this outdoors movie and everybody sitting there in lawn chairs. And I'm like, I don't have a lawn chair. What do I do? So I almost panic for a moment. And then I was like, wait a minute. I've got my blanket.

Just put your blanket down in the very front and just sit down and enjoy the movie. So I'm like, okay. So I end up, yeah. So I end up sitting in this blanket or on this blanket at the very front, and this couple befriends me, and she apparently is in the choir at the church. So she hears I'm in a band or was in a band, and she goes, ‘You have to join the choir.’ So I'm like, okay, well, I've been in choirs before.

So I end up going back to church and now I start looking for her in the choir and the music of the choir was just amazing. They had a soloist who literally sounded like she came from Broadway. And so I was like, okay, I'm kind of home. Yeah, because they had a full orchestra and they had the full choir. And so it was kind of like a Broadway show ⁓ in the respect of the vocalizations and the band.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:07)

Nice.

Karen E Iverson (08:20)

So sure enough, one night I say, okay, I'm going to go to the choir rehearsal. And this was in October and I go on a Wednesday night to the choir rehearsal and it was so amazingly beautiful. They had already started rehearsing for Christmas, and the songs were just so powerful. And I was like, ‘Wow, I'm going to stay, I'm going to be in the choir.’

And so then I ended up in the choir at the Baptist church.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:54)

As you do and music can bring people together. So you do work in counselling as well. And I'm wondering, have you found that doing music without any pressure to be the best or do it professionally or anything like that? Have you found that doing music for the joy of it and with other people and for a sense of community has that really helped your sense of joy and settling into a place?

Karen E Iverson (09:19)

Yes, I would definitely agree. I would definitely say yes, because I feel music can be so powerful, no matter what kind of music you're listening to, know, whether it's hard rock music or whether it's worship music or whether it's classical music, you know, music speaks to our soul. It speaks to our person as an individual. And I think when you go and listen to music on your own, that can be so powerful. And when you go and listen to music in a community,

that can be just as powerful, if not more powerful, as well. ⁓ So I do, that's one of the things I do recommend with my counselling is that people find avenues that bring them joy and light, and music is such a template to that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:07)

It really is. So I wanted to really find out more about the rest of your journey because I've heard something about how you had a journey with cancer as well.

Karen E Iverson (10:19)

Mm-hmm. Yes, I struggled from breast cancer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:22)

So.

What happened?

Karen E Iverson (10:27)

So in 2012, ⁓ I had a really great friend who all of a sudden was having heart disease issues, and she had to go into surgery and get a pacemaker. And in my bathroom shower, I had one of those little door sign hanging, you like you find in a hotel room. And I had that hanging on my bathroom shower, and it said on it, ‘Do your monthly breast exam.’

But did I do my monthly breast exam? I didn't, I wasn't doing it. And it had little punch-out buttons for each month. You just had to punch them out when you did them. And so Daniela gets heart disease and gets a pacemaker. And I'm like, wait a minute, you know, maybe I really should pay attention to my life and do what they're suggesting you do. And so I started doing that. I started doing a monthly breast exam. I had known how to do it because, you know, doctors and technicians teach you how to do it. And so I almost immediately found a lump, and I was like, am I feeling something? Because you don't know what it feels like, but it was this roundish, hard thing that was in my body, and it didn't feel the same on the other breast. So I'm like, okay, there's something going on here. And so I went at the moment I was actually in school. I was taking classes.

And one of the teachers was an ultrasound technologist. So he did a scan on me, and he couldn't really say anything other than the fact that, Karen, you should get this checked out. So I was like, okay. So I went to my gynaecologist, and I'm in the office with her, and I'm like, I found this lump. I don't know what it is. And she goes, okay, well, let me check and

She pats here and she feels there and she circles here and circles there. And she says to me, she looks at me, and she goes, Karen, she goes, I don't feel anything. And I'm like, what? How can you not feel anything? Because I can feel something clear as day. And she goes to me, I didn't say that to her, I was just thinking that to myself. That she goes, she goes, well, you you're almost 40. And she goes, so I'm gonna send you for a mammogram anyway.

So I was like, okay. So then the story gets longer because then I called up the local place that she suggested going to for the mammogram. And they say to me, It's going to be a month before you can get an appointment. And I'm like, a month? Yeah. And I said to the woman, I'm like, but I might have breast cancer. I have to wait a month. And she goes, ‘That's the soonest we have.’ So I'm like, okay. So I scheduled the appointment in a month.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:03)

Wow.

Karen E Iverson (13:18)

And I just bided my time. Yeah, because I didn't have the knowledge of dealing with things like cancer or disease, because I had been pretty healthy my whole life. And so, you know, I didn't realise I could call other places and see, you know, well, can you get me in sooner, or can you do the same mammogram but not have to wait so long? And so I just waited. And the thing was, I get in there a month later.

And they do the mammogram, and they immediately are like, well, we have to do your sonogram. And they immediately says to me, you need to go see a surgeon immediately. And I was like, okay. Yeah, yeah, it was really scary. ⁓ So then I called up.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:08)

So you went to a surgeon

Immediately, how far along was it? Did they tell you how bad was it at that point?

Karen E Iverson (14:16)

Yup. So it was already a stage two cancer. yup, yup. So yeah, yeah. So they, the, the surgeon, they tested me. They did a biopsy, which was the most painful thing I'd ever been in my life. ⁓ because they literally kept sticking. Well, they kept, they take a needle and they stick into your body to get to the, whatever it might be, the tumor, the cancer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:35)

What's that like?

Karen E Iverson (14:46)

if it's cancer or if it's benign. And they give you, I don't know what kind of shot, but a numbing shot first. And so they numbed me. But the thing was that it wasn't numbing enough, but they kept saying, ‘We're almost done, we're almost done.’ So I kept holding and holding, and it was more and more painful and more and more painful. And finally, they took apparently seven, seven ⁓ samples. And when they finally got done, I

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:06)

Gosh.

Karen E Iverson (15:16)

You know, I was in so much pain, and I expressed how much pain it was, and they were like, ‘Well, why didn't you tell me?’ And I'm like, well, you kept saying it was almost done, you know, and I just wanted it to be done. And so they're like, yeah, we would have numbed you more.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:33)

Wow. They don't, we go into some things not understanding how it's going to actually feel and be and what all of the options are, because sometimes for the doctors, things are so routine and familiar to them. They don't know what we don't know.

Karen E Iverson (15:34)

Yeah.

Yes, and you have to learn to speak up and advocate for yourself. ⁓ And that's something that in the first book I wrote, I talk about because it's important. I wrote my first book, Winning the Mental Health Battle. And my second book was a companion journal specifically for the person going through breast cancer, though I was told by other people with other types of cancers that it's applicable to them as well.

But that's one of the things I do. offer questions that you can ask your doctors, know, and resources and ideas on how to get a nutritionist and just ideas to help the person going through their struggle find some way to advocate for themselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:43)

Did you get a nutritionist to help with your healing?

Karen E Iverson (16:48)

Yes, I did. I found that at the time, I was what was called a pescatarian. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term pescatarian. Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:58)

basically

fished but otherwise vegetarian.

Karen E Iverson (17:01)

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I didn't eat anything other than fish and vegetables and that type of stuff. did eat, actually, I think at the time I wasn't eating eggs either, even though obviously that wouldn't count as pescatarian. So I don't think I was eating eggs at that time. ⁓ But I wanted to seek out a nutritionist to get ready for everything that was going on and the changes that were going to happen in my body. And I...

This was right after I had been diagnosed. So I ended up going through chemo, but this was way before I did chemo. And I went to the farmer's market in my local town in New Jersey, and I got all these different fruits and vegetables, and I made soups, and I got all prepared for my surgery. And this was when I was having the original mastectomy, and I put them all in my freezer and I put them in my fridge.

And then we had Hurricane Sandy, and everything went bad.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:07)

No! I remember hearing about that hurricane, but all your food went bad, and you would have put so much time into preparing everything.

Karen E Iverson (18:08)

Yes.

Yes, yes, yes. And everything just was gone. Everything I had worked all this, made all this effort. I made cauliflower soup. I was so excited to eat this cauliflower soup. Yes, yes. And then it was gone. And I'm like, my cauliflower soup.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:27)

Yum!

What did you do next?

Karen E Iverson (18:39)

So then at that point, I had my mastectomy, and ⁓ I decided to have a single mastectomy because I felt my other breast was totally fine. There was nothing wrong with it. And I didn't want to do anything to my body that didn't have to be done. ⁓ So I ended up getting a single mastectomy. ⁓ Originally I was told I was going to have a lumpectomy, but they kept telling me test after test after test, week after.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:06)

What's the difference?

Karen E Iverson (19:08)

The difference? Yeah. So a lumpectomy means they take a lump, basically, out of your breast that captures the tumour. So they take the tumour and the surrounding area out of your lump or out of your breast. So they take that lump out. And a mastectomy means they take all of the tissue of your entire breast out. And what normally determines that is how large the tumour is and how spread it is throughout your breast, whether they can just get it and capture it in a lump or if they need to take the whole breast. So what had happened after I was diagnosed, yeah, after I was diagnosed, was every week they would do another test, and every week the story would get bigger and bigger and bigger. And so they ended up telling me I needed a mastectomy. So that's when then I made the decision to just do the single mastectomy. And it was in November of 2012 when I had the mastectomy. And they had told me that it was gonna take about, I think it six weeks to recover because it's such a dramatic change to your body and it affects your movement of your arm. Excuse me.

And when they did my mastectomy, they take lymph nodes out at the same time. The lymph nodes tell the doctor whether the tumour has spread through your body, whether the cancer has spread through your body, not the tumour. ⁓And so if your lymph nodes have no tumour in them, then it means the tumour has not spread throughout your body.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:40)

Thanks.

Karen E Iverson (21:00)

The tumour if the lip if the tumour is in your lymph nodes Then it means your lymph which is all over your body has spread through your body So when they went to do my lymph nodes you have one main lymph node called your sentinel lymph node and The sentinel lymph node had tumour in it So what they did was then they took out more lymph nodes to make sure that

It wasn't in all my lymph nodes, and they took out a lot of lymph nodes ⁓ and a lot. They took out 26 lymph nodes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:37)

alive.

So, what are these lymph nodes? What do they look like? Is it a chunk of something? Sorry. I think it's good to translate these medical terms a little bit.

Karen E Iverson (21:55)

Well, they're just they're little pockets of lymph where your lymph is stored and then your lymph goes through your body, and I don't know the exact. I'm not well enough trained on that terminology in medicine to really give you a correct medical diagnosis of it. But what I do understand is that it is. Yes, yes, it's a pocket of lymph, and lymph is that's like

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:16)

That's fair, but it's like a pocket of something.

Karen E Iverson (22:23)

When your body has a disease in it and your lymph, my understanding is that it shows and clears the disease out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:36)

Okay, right. Please, out.

Karen E Iverson (22:38)

Yes. ⁓ So for example,

Yes, for example, when, because I had so many lymph nodes taken out, I have a little bit, or I had, I don't have it anymore, but I had a little bit of what's called lymphedema, which means edema means swelling. So it means my arm on the side that I had the mastectomy would swell a little bit. And it was mostly in my hand would swell a little bit.

Yeah, and so what was happening is the lymph that was trying to clear out any illness was getting stuck in my hand and my arm and swelling. So normally, the lymph will come up and out of your arm and take whatever toxins are in there up and out. And so the lymph was getting stuck in my hand. ⁓ And so I was getting lymphedema.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:34)

So you knew that you were going to take six weeks to recover. And it sounds like some of the reason was because it made a lot of changes to your body. I know that people can take a similar amount of time to recover from other surgeries as well, like a caesarean section or other things. So, but it would have had specific reasons for what you were going through as well. I'm wondering.

How did you journey physically and emotionally to feel like you're a self again? And did you take a while to get back into the world? What was your journey after all of that?

Karen E Iverson (24:11)

Well, as I had mentioned, I was actually in school taking classes. So I ended up basically just not working and just living off savings ⁓ and taking the time off in between the classes. I stopped my classes. And one of the things I did was I listened to what my doctor said and did any type of exercise I could do that could help strengthen my body.

And prior, when I had mentioned having the nutritionist, I was also trying to strengthen my body by doing exercise as well, so that my body would be able to recover faster. ⁓ But sometimes it can backfire a little bit. So one of the exercises my doctor had me doing was what's called walking your fingers up the wall. And so the side that had the mastectomy,

I would put my fingers, my hand against the wall and gently walk your fingers and raise your arm as you're walking your fingers and your arm up the wall. And she told me to do it this many times, this many times a day. And so I was like, okay. And so I started doing it, and I was doing it, and I'm feeling okay. I'm feeling like I'm getting better. And I'm like, I'm just going to keep doing it. And so I did it many more times than my doctor had prescribed. And then

All of a sudden, the next day, I was in so much pain because I had done it more than my body was ready to do. So I learned that as well, that sometimes we need to listen to our doctors and not do our own prescriptions.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:49)

And also go slowly. Don't do more than what you're ready for. That's kind of a lesson with a lot of exercises in some ways. Don't push yourself. You're not winning in life by pushing yourself to do more than what you can handle.

Karen E Iverson (26:04)

Yes, yes. And I also really relied heavily upon journaling. So that was one of my mental health processes that I did. I've been journaling and writing my whole life. And so I just fell right onto journaling and just journaled everything that I was going through. And it really gave me the sense of like I was being heard and like I could express myself, and I could think through things more thoroughly because instead of just thinking them in my mind, I was thinking them, I was writing them, I was reading them, I was absorbing them. So the journaling really gave me this whole experience to help me process through what I was experiencing. And it wasn't until years later, I was actually writing the journals on paper at that time. And I ended up realising that one day I was in the middle of chemo, and I picked up my journal, and I looked at the journal I had written, and there were lines here and crosses there and circles here and more words added in. And I'm like, wait a minute, why are you editing your journals? And so

Yeah, it's like, it's like this is a journal. Who's reading it? It's a journal for yourself, and you're editing it. And so I just realised that I was writing my first book. so I. Mm Yep. And it just became this journal for my first book. And I just all of a sudden was just awestruck that that my first book was going to be about breast cancer.

You know, it wasn't what I had expected.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:55)

That's huge. So you had been taking classes, and you'd been a teacher originally, and you didn't dream that one day your first book would be about cancer. And I think that's really significant because it happens to all sorts of people. And I can share with you that my late grandmother, who died in 21, had cancer, and I'm hearing what you're saying. And I think that a lot of people can learn from your experience. So I'm really glad that you're sharing this and sharing about your book, even talking about how you prioritise nutrition. And even though your soups went bad after what happened, I'm guessing you're still prioritising your eating. And honestly, to be real with you, I think that a decade ago, I didn't see people talking about how you can look after yourself if you do get sick, not in that way. It was very popular. It was really focused on that. So I'm so curious. I mean, you know, I want to hear more about your book, but I'm wondering how you look after yourself now? Do you still think a lot about nutrition to stay feeling healed and to try to prevent things in the future as well?

Karen E Iverson (29:12)

Yes, I mean, I think that your body responds to what you put into it. So whether, like you said, whether it's popping a pill or whether it's eating something healthy. ⁓ I mean, if you eat something that's unhealthy, like maybe French fries, I love every once in a while to have a French fry, know, or French fries. ⁓ But do you notice when you're eating them, if you're… how your body reacts and how your body responds. Are you feeling sluggish afterwards? Are you feeling gross? What are you feeling afterwards? Do you feel energised and alive versus if you eat something healthy, like maybe eating a tomato, how does that fresh tomato make you feel versus eating ketchup? And there's just such a different quality of life in the product.

And how it makes you feel when you eat it. ⁓ So I do definitely now, you know, pay attention to what I'm eating still. Now, I am not a pescatarian anymore. I do eat all types of foods now. ⁓ But I did decide after I went through chemo that I wanted the extra protein that things like chicken or beef, you know, would provide to me.

And so I did start eating meat again. And what I do, though, is my big key is to eat things in moderation. So when I do go out to eat, it's very rare that I do not take home some take-home product with me. And I know different places in the world do different things with going out to eat, different portion sizes.

I know in the US we often have very large portion sizes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:00)

Yes.

They do. And

That happens in Australia as well. So you're teaching something here. I've heard that it's not always, let me know if this is right. I heard that in America, it's not always accepted or encouraged to take the leftovers home afterwards, or maybe in other countries. I know that over here, occasionally people do that, but they don't do it a lot. But you're saying it's okay to not eat everything on your plate.

Karen E Iverson (31:29)

Yes, it is okay to not eat everything on your plate. And where I've experienced in the US, it is okay to take food home with you. ⁓ But that's very contrary to what I grew up with in being instilled in my mind. You have to eat everything on your plate. That's what I was taught. But now as an adult, when I'm full, I'm full.

And I can sense when I'm getting full, and then I know if I eat everything else that's on my plate when I get home, I'm not gonna feel good. And so I will stop eating and say, You know what, I really am enjoying eating this, so I want to be able to eat it again when I get home the next day. So I do enjoy taking home leftovers.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:18)

That's such a simple lesson everybody can take and it's such a widely experienced journey, I think, because in a lot of places, I think the boomers and Gen X, it really started, I think, with the generations that wanted to prevent waste, be grateful for what you have, and someone out there doesn't have the food you have. There were all these lines and...

I think that over here we were taught the same as well, eat everything in front of you. And then it's just a pressure to overeat and to ignore how the body is feeling. So we are getting empowered now to listen to our bodies more.

Karen E Iverson (32:58)

⁓ And it's interesting because many, many, many, many, many moons ago, ⁓ know, the people that were very overweight were considered the wealthy kings and queens. And the people that were very, very thin were thought of as the poppers. And now, you know, there's more of a ideal that you want to be thin. For a while, it was that you want to be very thin, which then I think more recently they realized that that's not healthy either that you want to be a ⁓ thin enough weight so that you're healthy at a healthy weight. But I mean, the main idea, I think, is that you're eating healthy food and you're exercising and you're taking care of your mental health.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:45)

Yes. And even though you're not a pescatarian now, you're probably still focusing on eating real food. And I'm a vegan, and I know not everybody is a vegan, but the common thread I'm seeing with you and with others I've talked to is that if we're just aiming to eat real, fresh foods instead of the ultra-processed things, it's normally a great step for all of us.

Karen E Iverson (34:08)

Yes, yes. And that is the thing is not to eat the processed food. I know there's a thing in the US about the markets that you go to where they say everything on the outsides are the healthy things. And then the things in the middle of the aisles are the more processed things. So people talk about eating on the outside.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:33)

Absolutely start with something that's in its original form in some way for sure. So let's go back to the book because I can sense that you feel so proud about the book, and I want to really give that attention. So you wrote a few books. I'm wondering, the interesting thing about how you wrote is it really did start off as a journal, and some people sit down and say, I'm going to write a book and they might go through

Karen E Iverson (34:40)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:03)

Writer's block, or they might think they have that, or they could feel a bit lost, but you're simply writing your reality for therapeutic reasons, basically, and it evolved into a book. Is that something you would recommend? How did you go from a journal during chemo to having a book published?

Karen E Iverson (35:32)

So I do think that journaling is a great way to get your juices rolling, you know. And one of the things to keep in mind is that when you are writing a book, you're always going to go through the editing process. So whether you start it as a journal or you start it just writing the chapters, ⁓ you know, it's going to get edited. So things that are out of place or need to be added to or subtracted from, you know, can be done in the editing. Now, when I write my books, my books are, some of them are more stream of conscious in the fact that they're right from my heart and right from my soul. And so they really express what I'm feeling and what I'm going through as way to help other people going through the same thing know that they're not alone and know that they can get through it. ⁓ So for example, in my first book, Winning the Breast Cancer Battle from Struggling to... I'm sorry, I'm mixing my three books together. ⁓ Winning the Breast Cancer Battle. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:44)

It's okay, can flick between them. Tangents can be great. Oh, by the way, there's a

delay in the audio by a second or two. I know that I keep ending up kind of, I can tell that you're hearing what I'm saying is a second or a few after, but you're coping well. Yeah, so you had the few books.

Karen E Iverson (37:01)

Okay.

Yes. So in my first book, Winning the Breast Cancer Battle, Empowering Warriors and Guiding Loved Ones, that book is very much like the journal writing. So every entry is similar to the exact journal I wrote, obviously, though it was edited. And literally, ⁓ some of the entries are one page long, one of the entries is a sentence. That's it. And so that's like the whole sub-chapter is just a sentence. And it's, it's really, as I said, it's a way to help somebody really get into my mind and really get into the idea of this is how I am working through this right now. And this is what I'm feeling, and this is what I'm thinking. And you might be thinking and feeling this exact same thing.

So it invites the reader along the journey so that they can take the journey with me, which most books do. It's just a matter of the style and format that I chose to use. ⁓ And so I did with that first book, I did take those journal entries, and then I ended up finding a ⁓ company, a school, a publishing school that taught me how to actually take the journal entries and make them into a book so that I could then self-publish it. And so it was years after I actually went through the breast cancer that I ended up having the time and also making the effort to put it together into the actual book that it became. And it was technically published then, after I was involved with that school.

And then the other thing also was that

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:58)

So when did that get published? When was that one published?

Karen E Iverson (39:00)

So the first book was published, yep, it was published in 2019.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:09)

Okay, that's really significant because for those out there who had an experience, it's okay to then take a while before something is actually published about it. It's okay if it takes time.

Karen E Iverson (39:19)

Yes.

Yes, you have to be ready for it. know, and again, since mine was all about journals, it's about exposing myself as well, you know, and and you have to be willing to be able to share yourself and your personal experiences and feelings and know that other people may judge you for it. But, you know, it's more important to get it out there and help maybe even just one person.

than to succumb to what one other person might judge you for.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:57)

Right. So it's more important to put yourself in the vulnerable situation that could end up helping other people.

Karen E Iverson (40:06)

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's, I mean, I feel that's, that's part of my calling in life is to help other people. And so if I can shed light on my life and my experiences, you know, maybe that one other person can learn from it and be helped and have an easier time going through similar things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:28)

Yes, for sure, it's, I think you're doing great work because the lived experience is powerful, and because you do work in counselling, you do have that perspective on how people can emotionally process experiences, but the lived experience. It's crucial, I think, that I wish more people would share things the way you are.

I remember the time when I was having a different surgery, and I think that all I could go by was what the doctor said. And I don't know if that surgeon had actually experienced what I had experienced. So when you told me that you were having something happen and you hadn't really known when to speak up or what to know, I think that the more you can spread the word about what you went through. And as you show people, it's

It's very achievable to create a book or talk in a conversation like this about what it's actually like, because it's so different to, it has to be so different to read a textbook about cancer or anything else and then to actually physically go through that and bounce back from it. It's just, did you find that? Have you actually connected with other people who went through cancer?

Karen E Iverson (41:52)

I have. I've worked with people that have had cancer. ⁓ I've also shared my books with people that have had cancer. And, you know, the first two books I wrote about breast cancer, I did have people with other types of cancers read them and say how helpful they were for them as well. ⁓ Because when you go through something like cancer, whether it's lung cancer or breast cancer or liver cancer, you are still going through very similar testing and similar experiences. So they found that it was helpful to them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:35)

Definitely. It must be a lot to navigate. Did you find that entering that medical world, suddenly, there's a whole language to learn, and you might be dealing with so many different departments or professionals, or did you find there was a lot to even navigate and learn when all of this happened?

Karen E Iverson (42:55)

Definitely. I mean, there's so much to navigate. ⁓ I mean, there's the terminology like we were talking about earlier. You know, do we know the terminology? Do we know enough of it, even if we don't understand the medical terminology, but to understand it in the layman's term that we understand it so that we can make sense of it? ⁓ Do we have to interact with the anaesthesiologist as well as the surgeon?

as well as the plastic surgeon. All of these things are involved. Then you have your oncologist dealing with chemo. You have all these different doctors and all these different nurses and techs people you're interacting with. And if we go this way, you're in the room taking your clothing off in front of how many people while they're looking at you and feeling and seeing what's wrong and what's going on.

I went to a primary care doctor's office once, and the primary care doctor had an intern, and they literally asked me, Well, I'm sorry, but can he feel your breast? Because he's never experienced breast cancer before. Can he feel the tumour in your breast? Yeah, mean, it's, but you know, what did I say? I said yes because he's learning and he needs to know what it feels like to.

Karen E Iverson (44:21)

right? So that he can help other people with breast cancer. So, you know, I was like, sure, you know, go ahead, you know, but it's, it's an experience you don't expect to have. And so, you know, that's exactly why I wrote the book, you know, so that, that people can know ahead of time that this is something that might happen, you know, and this is a doctor you need to interact with. So here are some questions you can ask your doctor, right? I have that.

especially in the companion journal. You know, I have all these questions with lines written in so that you have space to write down the answers. And then I have blank space as well. So you can come up with your own questions and I put in their calendars so you could mark in the month and the days and you can use it to keep track of appointments. You know, it's it's it's just a tool to help people so that when they are meeting all these new people and experiencing all these new experiences, you know, it's not as foreign as it was for me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:31)

For sure, it sounds like your books are a buddy for people who are trying to find their way through all of this. And that's really perspective that when something medical happens, we can end up literally exposed.

Karen E Iverson (45:48)

Yeah, yeah, very literally, figuratively and literally.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:55)

Both. So we need to know when do we need to just say yes to something because it's a life or death situation. And when do we have a bit more flexibility to say, look, this doesn't feel quite right for me. That's a lot of decisions, and it's different for everybody. And we're not giving medical advice, but we're exploring, okay, how can everybody ask questions to the right people? That's so crucial.

There are a couple of questions that I'm really keen to ask you. One thing I wanted to ask is about trauma in general, or people going through any sort of big physical change or a medical or health issue, because you are, as we said, you're in, you're a counsellor, and I'm wondering how you guide people through moving to the next chapter when something happens. Let's focus on that one.

Karen E Iverson (46:50)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, a lot of people have trauma from a lot of different avenues. I mean, it can be something that happens to them that's not medical. It can be something that is medical that stimulates the trauma. And a lot of it is, I do recommend going to counselling. I'm a licensed professional counsellor, and there are also social workers. There are psychologists. ⁓ But when you're going through something like ⁓ an experience that creates trauma, it's important to do talk through it and do experience through it so that you can get past it and get beyond it. Because if we don't deal with our trauma, then our brains literally create neural pathways that our trauma gets stuck in. Our body holds on to that trauma. so, I mean, there's a great book called Our Body Keeps the Score. And, you know, it's

We don't want to hold on to that trauma our entire life. So you need to process through it. And a great way to help you get through that is to go see a counsellor. And they can help you process and deal with it so that you can best get to a safe place beyond it where you're not stuck in that trauma loop.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:14)

So the step one is to talk to someone.

Karen E Iverson (48:17)

Yeah, it really is. And, you know, I am going to mention journaling again because journaling is talking to yourself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:28)

It's okay to talk to yourself.

Karen E Iverson (48:30)

Yeah, it is.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:35)

Okay, so get a journal and get some good pens. That's, I feel very inspired by that actually. And the other question you mentioned is speaking up for yourself. I'm wondering if there's an element of self-advocacy as we journey through anything. I know that, I know that I had to navigate and advocate in the school space, so people might have to do it there or as they are having a health issue, and I'm wondering about speaking up for yourself and your needs anywhere. Do you have any words of wisdom for how we can do that in a way that people understand, in a way that we can feel confident and feel heard?

Karen E Iverson (49:23)

I think really just going deep and knowing that this is about yourself and taking care of yourself. And it's important to be able to take care of ourselves. And sometimes the only way we can take care of ourselves is to speak up for ourselves, you know, and know that we're good enough and deserve to be able to speak up for ourselves and be treated fairly.

We shouldn't be treated unfairly. So when we are feeling like we are, it's important to speak up and just find that inner courage and that inner strength in knowing that we deserve better than to be treated unfairly. ⁓ And that we need to take that opportunity to make a choice because we have always the choice. We always have the choice to do nothing or to do something.

And if we procrastinate, that's a choice to do nothing. Yes, it's a choice. Procrastination is a choice. So it's important to say, you know what, self, what is the result of not making a choice here, and what is the result of making a choice? And then if we are choosing to make a choice, we can always ask for advice from other people and do research.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:24)

as always.

Karen E Iverson (50:51)

so that we're making the best educated choice we can make. So making a choice doesn't mean we have to do it on our own. It just means that we're finding the research, finding the answers, and making the best choice for us.

I mean, for yes, we always have a choice. And for example, as I mentioned before, about choosing to do a single mastectomy versus a double mastectomy ⁓ and a lumpectomy. Well, the lumpectomy was the initial thought, but that choice was made for me because I needed the mastectomy because of the cancer spreading and the size of the tumour. But then the choice to have the double mastectomy or the single

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:12)

We always have a choice.

Karen E Iverson (51:40)

Many people choose, for various reasons, to do a double mastectomy, but my choice was not to. And that was based upon what I felt was right for myself and based upon the knowledge that I gained to make that choice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:59)

Right. Do you think that part of it is asking yourself or with other people, what happens if I do this option? What happens if I choose that option? Does that, is that one way to think it out?

Karen E Iverson (52:15)

Yes. I mean, you want to look at the options of the ramifications of your choice. You know, so you do want to look at what happens if I do this. Now, one of the things as a counsellor is we don't want to get caught up in the present or the future and then stuck in anxiety over what's going to happen in the future. But if we can take the present moment and how we're feeling in the present moment. Yeah. And what we're thinking in the present moment, and look at the options that we've come to realise our educated options, and then make the best choice for us based upon what the outcomes could possibly be. Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:58)

So that's actually a really significant point, and it's really easy to end up overthinking or obsessing. I can relate to that a lot. Just, Ooh, I wanted to know more. I wanted to get all the details. So you're saying part of this is just, we're never going to have all the information in the entire world. So one thing we need to do is be in the present, do what we can.

Karen E Iverson (53:25)

Yes, definitely. Yes, because if we live in the present, then we can be much happier. And when we live in the future, then we get all anxious and we can get all out of sorts. And when we live in the past, we're living in depression. I mean, sometimes obviously the past can be present. The past can be happy as well. But if we're living in the negative past, then that's how we get depressed. So, yes, if we're making our educated choices and living in this present moment with the fact that we did make this choice, that's where you want to be. Now, there also is the idea that, you know, what if I do make this choice and it's the wrong choice? Well, a lot of times in the future, you can change that choice. You know, a lot of times things are set in stone. So, you know, maybe you choose to do one thing. Maybe we choose to eat fish today, right? And tomorrow we feel sick because we ate the fish. Well, maybe it wasn't, ⁓ maybe the fish had gone bad before we ate it, right? So then tomorrow we choose to eat a fish that's not gone bad. That's fresh, right? ⁓ You know, it's a matter of making the educated choices and knowing that with some of them we can change our minds if we need to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:56)

We can adapt. My plant-based equivalent is I'll have a day of just wanting carbs. I just want carbs all day, and then I realise, I feel a bit odd. I need to get more balanced, go back to the vegetables and then we can adapt, evolve and heal ourselves a day or two after.

Karen E Iverson (55:17)

Exactly, very good. Yes, I like that example.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:23)

For sure. I'd love to wind up a bit more with any more recommendations on how people can heal without feeling isolated. So I also know that you do art, and we talked about your music and a sense of community. I know that some people will have in our audience a spiritual practice, beliefs, or none of the above.

But do you have any words of wisdom for how people can stay connected to just feel supported with whatever is happening next?

Karen E Iverson (56:02)

think one of the main things to do is really seek out like-minded people. So seek out people that enjoy things that you enjoy as well. So like if you like going to the movies, try to find a group of people that like to go to the movies, you know, and spend time with them. ⁓ You know, if you like to play tennis, go to a local tennis court and see if you can jump in a game with some people or

Now, all the rage is pickleball, you know, so at least it is in the U. S. ⁓ So, you know, go to a pickleball court and make friends with people that play pickleball by saying, Hey, can I jump in your game? You know, or take a lesson, you know, if, if, you can afford it, then take a lesson and start learning and see if you can make connections that way. ⁓ But I really do encourage people to, you know, search themselves and see what they enjoy and what their passions are and try to do those things so that you can meet people that have similar interests to you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:11)

sure. Would you like to wind up with three key lessons for everybody, and any way that people can learn from you after this conversation?

Karen E Iverson (57:23)

Sure. I think that one of the things I definitely would recommend always is journaling, as we've talked about it. ⁓ And journaling can be in so many different forms. You can journal on a piece of paper. You can journal with different coloured gel pens. You could journal by writing artwork, you know, and just allowing yourself to free flow. You know, that can be a form of journaling. You can journal by talking to a friend, where you're verbally journaling what you're going through. I think also that it's important to pursue your hobbies. We really find strength and enjoyment in our life and peace in this world, which is a difficult world. When we find a sense of self through doing what we enjoy doing.

And I also, guess I would just say, you know, to read books and read, read, ⁓ you know, something that you're passionate about. ⁓ If it's, if that's like a nonfiction book that might give you motivational information, or if that's a fantasy book, you know, that's fiction, you know, that might give you a way to escape your reality so that you can get some free time to just be somewhere other than in your present moment by experiencing these characters that might be from Mars or wherever they might be from. So look for some fiction in that respect. ⁓ And my books are all Winning the Breast Cancer Battle. There's an original book as well as the Winning the Breast Cancer Battle companion journal. And then I also have my most recent book, which is Winning the Mental Health Battle from Struggling to Thriving.

Seven Tips to Navigate Anxiety, Depression, and Mania. ⁓ And that book deals with anxiety, depression, mania, and PTSD. And all of these things can be found on Amazon. ⁓ You can look them up under Karen Iverson. I'm also held, I'm found, my handle is Karen E. Iverson. So K-A-R-E-N-E-I-V-E-R-S-O-N. ⁓ And that's where you can find me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:48)

Karen Iverson, thank you so much for helping us to heal. I really appreciate it.

Karen E Iverson (59:55)

Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's been a pleasure talking to you. I hope we can talk again.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:01)

can anytime have a great rest of your day.

Karen E Iverson (1:00:07)

Yes, you too enjoy the day!