Philanthropy, Purpose & the Power of Relationships: Dr. Froswa' Booker on Community, Leadership & Social Capital | The Motivate Collective Podcast

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Roswell, welcome to the podcast.

Dr Froswa' Booker (00:05)

Thank you for having me, Melanie. I'm so excited to be here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:09)

It's a delight. I saw a bit about what you do, and this is a very special form of self-care, in my opinion, giving back to others, and you have done amazing work. I hope you can explain to everybody how you describe what you do.

Dr Froswa' Booker (00:26)

Thank you.

Wow, I do a number of things. Philanthropy being one expression of love that I get to do every day.

And so I have a small business where my daughter works for me. And we do a couple of things. We work in communities and helping organizations and institutions think about how they're better neighbors. So a number of groups want to do philanthropy and have ideas, but they may not always know how to do that. And so we go in and do assessments and use a lot of GIS mapping and

things like that to help them understand their neighborhoods and the communities they're in, and then make recommendations and how they can deploy resources to their communities. And typically these are areas that they may not be as familiar with, and how to work with nonprofits and work with various communities and bring them to the table and do the work. But out of that, we started discovering that sometimes they had organisational culture problems where

They're not nice to each other. They don't like each other in their workplace. And it's like, how do you want to work with people in community? And you don't like each other very well. And so we do a lot of work in helping them build relationships internally and building a culture around being a good neighbor so they can do it externally. And the last piece of the work is really about coaching leaders and being an executive coach to leaders who are trying to do a social impact and work in community. So I get to do that and I'm an author. And then there's the philanthropy piece where I've worked as a funder and giving money before. And then after I left that role, I started figuring out ways to help support folks in making things happen in the community. So that's a little bit of the gamut of stuff I get to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:30)

It's so broad. Are you seeing that having a broad spectrum of things you do in your career in one phase of life, did you find that that is better for you and for everybody, instead of specialising in just one area?

Dr Froswa' Booker (02:46)

Because I'm a little bit more seasoned. I've been able to do a number of things throughout my career. And what's happened now is it's become so broad because there's been so much time in doing this work in different spaces. And so I say to my younger sisters in this space, keep your head down and do good work.

You know, I think so often we always focus on the destination and not recognising that the journey is so important because there are skills and relationships and knowledge that you gain. And so being able to just do good work and enjoy what you're doing opens up a pathway for you when you get to be a little bit older with some white hair like me that you get to be able to do some things that are really creative and unique. And I'd say you can't do that young, but all of what I get to do has been kind of the accumulation of all these years, decades of just doing some very unique things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:53)

You are bringing together bits and pieces from everything you did over the years to then draw upon all of it.

Dr Froswa' Booker (04:00)

Yes,

Yes, it's not, and it hasn't been wasted. I remember there were certain things early in my career that I was like, why am I doing this?

I need a check. I don't really care about this. And I can see now how those experiences shaped me. It shapes the way that I show up and how I treat people. And so I didn't think 30 years ago, some of that stuff had any value, where I can see now it's very important. And it has allowed me to be the kind of leader. I had some leaders very young in my career. Some were decent, and some were really good. I had others who were like trash.

They taught me some things, and they showed me the kind of leader I did not want to be. And so because of that, you know, and at the time I was like, what am I doing? Why am I going through this? I get it now because now I'm able to be a different kind of leader. And I hope people don't have to have those experiences, but at least for me, those experiences shaped me and helped me to be a better person and lead and show up in community very differently.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:11)

What sorts of experiences felt a bit more meaningful later on?

Dr Froswa' Booker (05:14)

you

I was like, you're gonna ask me about what happened? There had been several, but I had an experience with a boss who was very threatened when I was young in my career. I came in, and I'm just out of my master's program at that point. I'm like 24, 25 and initially I thought she was going to mentor me. You know, I looked up to this person, thought she was going to be amazing, and there were things that she did that just were very harmful to me and painful. I remember one day being in a staff meeting, and she read off my whole job description and told another colleague, who's like an admin, that she was going to do my job.

And I was just sitting there going, my God, what do I do? What is it that you expect me to do? You've given her everything that I'm supposed to do. And I remember that being so painful. And I didn't stay very long after that because I recognised I was being put in a position where you wanted me to come to work every day and do nothing, then say I was doing nothing. And what that situation taught me was several things.

As a leader, there are ways to talk to people, and you have to check your ego. And I think sometimes people easily get threatened by youth and folks who are talented. And not to say that I was perfect by any means, but...

I had an expectation that you were going to guide me, and if there was some challenge that you may have had, you should have had a conversation instead of doing it that way. So for me, I don't have bitterness. It had taught me that when I got in a position of leadership, how do I make sure that I'm stewarding young people well? Because my actions could actually cause trauma for them later on, and they could end up being harmful leaders too, because what they experienced they think is okay.

And so I wanted to break that cycle, and I did. I wanted to make sure that there were younger people that when I brought them in and they were brilliant and talented and go-getters that I encouraged them and created space for them to grow versus punishing them because my ego got threatened or I felt like they're gonna take my job. Take it, I don't care. It also helped me to move from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset of there's so much there and if you take my job, great. That means there's something bigger and

better for me to do. I want you to have it. So by, you know, putting myself in a box, I would limit my own possibilities. And I didn't want to do that. And I definitely didn't want to do it for someone else. And that's what that experience taught me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:08)

It's a very difficult moment when perhaps we cling on to the roles that we do and we cling on to what we know with how to do something and it takes a lot of letting go. What she was doing was so far beyond that, and that was horrible. can tell you I had moments early in my career where

I knew, okay, it was very clear someone was doing maneuvers, and sometimes it was outright humiliating. We can, it's amazing. And then we try to do the right thing for the next generations. I wonder if you've seen anyone from the younger generations feeling a bit extra sensitive, extra nervous.

Dr. Froswa' Booker (08:44)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:06)

because I saw someone last year who was constantly wondering, is this thing something against me? Is this thing an opinion? And everything was anxious. And especially it was around the time when there was a lot of political stuff going on in the world. And do you see any young people getting very anxious and needing a bit of reassurance?

Dr Froswa' Booker (09:28)

Yeah.

Absolutely. Work is frightening. I mean, if you're honest, it's like, I need this money to be able to live on. And to some degree, you have control of my life. That's terrifying when you're 20-something years old, and you've been accustomed to mom and dad doing things for you. And even though they may not do everything you want, you still are able for the most part to exist.

And then you move into this adulting. It's terrifying to be in situations where I don't know what my boss wants. So I'm learning you. Never met you in my life. I don't know what expectations you have. You say one thing, you do something totally different than what you say. It would cause angst and allow you to have this experience of anxiousness. So one of the things I always say to people that are managing folks is communication is going to be your best friend.

You have to communicate and over-communicate because I don't know you, and as soon as I'm learning you, you're learning me. I'm learning this role. I'm learning the co-workers That's a lot of information for someone to take in who doesn't have much experience in the world my ex-husband used to say when my daughter turned like 20 a couple years ago He said she's a two-year-old adult And I would always go that that's very true. She hasn't had a lot of experience being an adult. She's had more experience being a child

And so then I have this expectation for you to show up and know everything. They don't. So I think we have to really begin to look at how we mentor and how we communicate and give expectations and feedback. Older generations, and data shows this, didn't need the kind of feedback. And the ways that you're seeing younger people who are used to instantaneous information, they're always getting feedback. They need feedback more than my generation did.

You

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:34)

explaining it. This is why I love the podcast. This is joining dots because I was, and I'll be so kind in this moment, I was in community guiding someone in a community group and I wasn't giving a detailed set of guidance for a very simple administrative function instantly, and that person assumed that meant she was being shoved out, and it really wasn't like that. I was stretched thin. And if you are saying that younger people now, they just, they expect the answers now. It's that's the shift. We probably, we worked at a different pace. We're not slow, but we didn't have that instant gratification as much.

Dr. Froswa' Booker (12:17)

Yes.

Yes!

No, you didn't have, and I think about this, when I was growing up, there was no internet, you know, and my daughter makes fun that I knew Moses. I was like, I'm not that old. But, you know, I'm like, my God, but I didn't have internet, and I definitely didn't have social media.

I can only imagine how stressful I would be with the constant feedback if I like something or there's a heart on something, and some kind of emoji expression. There are all these opportunities to engage. That would have driven me nuts at 17 years old. I look at these young people now, I'm like, you're brilliant. You have so much information that's coming at you, and they're having to decipher what it means, and then add on top of that AI.

So now I'm not only having to decipher this information, I got to figure out if it's real or not. And so now I go into the workplace and I got to do the same thing with people. Are you who you say you are? Are you just saying this because you have to say this? Do you mean this? So you're trying to really interpret all of this information and expressions that people have and what they're saying. And I'm learning, you know, even people make meaning differently.

So we may say the same word, but you may have a very different meaning behind that word than what I do. So now we've got a problem. That's a lot to try to manage at 20, 25 years old. It's a lot to manage at my age, in my fifties. I'm like, what, say that again. What do you mean? I don't know what that means. It's a lot.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:56)

You said people are trying to figure out what is real. I think that has been going on for a long time because of what social media turned into. And it brings us together. I mean, you found this podcast on social media, and we can connect with amazing people. I was able to see your website, and I loved how summarised it was. Honestly, sometimes people have so much info I need to ask AI, can you just give me one page of what this person's about? Have had it all?

Dr Froswa' Booker (14:04)

Yes, yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:26)

New, clear lists, this is what you do. But that's the upside. But the flip side is I think it has been a long time. At this point, it has been what? More than a decade of people having filters. Photoshop was being used before then; everybody was. I remember the moment when suddenly anyone could get an app on their phone that could totally filter them, and you would be able to put someone into a photo, and you didn't wonder what was real, but beyond just the image of things. I mean, you're looking at philanthropy and community as well as corporate culture and in all of those spaces, let's face it, some people have felt a bit of, a bit of uncertainty with the world. Some Americans have been telling me that politics is a bit of a handful right now.

And in Australia, in Australia, I'm seeing these headlines about how the oil costs and conflicts overseas could affect the prices of things. So people are already anxious, but then just looking at wondering whether something is, whether a person is real or not. Some people look at what is online, and they think that is what there is. Some people look at me, and they think whatever picture they show, they

Dr Froswa' Booker (15:49)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:53)

Whatever picture they saw, that's what there is when I'm juggling so much that nobody is ever going to see. Do you find that as well, that people don't realise there's more going on than what they see on their screens?

Dr Froswa' Booker (16:08)

Absolutely, because we live in a world that's very surface. I think that we are in spaces where, again, information is coming to you in bite-sized. So you have to recognise that.

People look at each other that way. It's bite-sized. you're the sum of everything that I see. That's terrifying. Because then what we do is we put people in a box and believe that all that they are is this one facet of what I've seen. And that's not fair. So then it's easy for me to summarise someone very quickly because of a sound bite. And we're watching that, you know, in social media, someone says one little thing taken out of context and without the whole show, you know, or cancelling people and being angry with them, and because they haven't taken the time to go, let me dig. And so I think we're in a very precarious environment right now because we're not taking the time to get to know each other. And I often say to people when I'm training them that you can advocate for someone when you're proximate to them. But if I'm not proximate and I'm just watching a clip of you, I can make a decision about who you are, and I don't like you, and you're a horrible person.

And we do that in five seconds of seeing someone, already sum them up. It's a very dangerous thing. And so then we do that in our relationships where we sum up people, and we don't give them the opportunity to be human. It's not fair.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:38)

Absolutely. That's part of why I like the longer conversations of the podcast, but also any form of long conversation. You need more than the 30 seconds. Let's face it. There's an upside. It's handy if you only have a quick moment to glance at your favourite people online and say, okay, they're talking about this and only have a moment, but it's not going to go deeper, and the human conversations, it's crucial.

Dr Froswa' Booker (17:49)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:07)

Are you seeing that and anything else as a factor in people connecting with communities that are in need?

Dr Froswa' Booker (18:15)

Yeah, because it's so easy to just look at a sound bite or data. And not that data is bad, but when data doesn't match the stories of people in community, we're reducing people to numbers. And so that's very dangerous too. It's important that we start talking to people and listening to their story. I often tell this story about years ago,

I was working for an organization and I was giving out money and community on their behalf. And this particular community didn't have a lot of internet. So that was a big challenge for kids getting their homework done and having access to resources. And so there was a telecommunications provider who came and said, I want to do internet in your community. Now data said they needed it. But I bring, you know, some community people together, and the whole time while this gentleman is talking, they're on their phones.

And I'm horrified because I'm like, being so rude. Why are they doing that? And I knew them to know something was up and they're researching what he's saying. And they looked at him, and they said, no, we don't want this. I'm going, but data said this is what you need. And they're going, no, this isn't what we want. And so I remember going to the city council person and saying, this is a great proposal. would help this community. And they said to me, Francois, if you knew what they were proposing,

It doesn't look the same in a more affluent community. This is harmful. So sometimes in our desire to do good, because we don't listen to people and talk to them and ask them what they want, we'll only go with the data and then go, well, that's what you need. And then I can get angry and go, well, I'm trying to help you when I haven't really listened to you and figured out what it is that you need. And I think too often in communities, we do that to people, especially when we're not proximate to them, and we're not listening to them.

We can make judgments and stereotypes and then do things and get mad when they don't like it and go, well, I thought I was helping you. And they're going, but we didn't ask for your help. That's not what we wanted. No one asked us. So what I try to get people to do is to be proximate, to listen, and not just use data, but use the stories. And when those two come together, we got magic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:30)

This is so good. It's time for the juicy question. Looking at communities that need help. Have you seen some leaders judging? I'll just come out and say it. Do some people judge the situations people are in, and how do you guide people to reach real understanding and a common ground?

Dr Froswa' Booker (20:55)

That's good.

That's very good. It goes back to getting people proximate. Couple of things.

It's helping people move from this either-or concept because so often in communities we go, it's either this or it's that. And it's really multiple realities that exist. And it's helping people understand their systems and structures that are in place that create the environments that people are in. And quite often, what you're seeing is the response to those environments that they had nothing to do with.

So we blame them for their condition, but we don't pay attention to laws and policies and ordinances and things that have been created that they weren't included in making decisions for, that they weren't given the opportunity to speak into, and yet they're living the result of bad policies and decisions. So I think it's important to help people when they are working in community to understand history to understand social cultural context, because then you're able to go, now it makes sense. But too often, people look at the result of what they're seeing in the here and now and not understand the process that allowed this community or this group to be where they are. So then we'll make a judgment and blame people and not recognise there is this huge picture, this tapestry that's been created that we're not taking into account. And so what I try to help people do is let's step back before we make any program, spend any money, and let's get a better understanding of why this is what it is. And let's ask them what they want, because co-creation is important. And too often, we make decisions for people, and then when they don't like it, we're mad, versus saying, how do we co-create together? I have an idea. Does this match what you want? And again, when we can grow and create together, then we can do some very impactful work.

But when people come in and think that they can control and dominate, that never works. It hasn't.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:59)

Absolutely. The dominating. That's not how to listen. And I can share with you that as I've been forming a community to expand beyond this podcast, it has been about listening and asking what people actually want. So this can translate beyond philanthropy for those who are listening to this, and they are doing other forms of work.

Dr Froswa' Booker (23:21)

Yes

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:27)

Asking questions can be such a simple first step. Do you find that asking questions will solve almost anything?

Dr Froswa' Booker (23:35)

It's leaning into curiosity.

And I don't think people do enough of that. know, one of the things that sounds so simple, but it's been mind-blowing to me is that, you know, when you're dating, part of what develops intimacy is curiosity. It's asking, what do you like to eat? Do you like these movies? Where would you like to go for dinner? And that curiosity builds something because you're like, oh, now I know this about a person. If we're going to build deep relationships with people and if we're going to make the

happen. It requires us to have this curiosity with people and it doesn't just mean in the intimate relationships and our professional relationships. There's intimacy that you have with people of going, I know my co-worker.

She doesn't typically act like this, but I know her well enough to know something is wrong. But until you ask those questions and get to know them, you're not able to advocate for them and even empathise with them, let alone have sympathy. So how do we begin to start leaning into this idea of ask questions? There's nothing wrong with that because we don't have all the answers. And that's been something for me, even in my faith walk, that I find that I'm doing more of is even asking those kinds of questions because you would be the answers that you get when you just not just ask but listen.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:57)

You're a faith, what does that involve?

Dr Froswa Booker (25:00)

I am a Christian, and I didn't have a very different lens than a lot of people do, in how I see things. But that is what guides me and how I do things. I am really big on this idea of love and what it means to truly love people, even when I don't always agree with you. And what I see so often today is people use that title in a way that is not honouring of what it really means. And when we really look at what it is rooted in, and what Christ came to do. It's very different than the way it's expressed now.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:40)

What's the difference?

Dr Froswa' Booker (25:42)

I think the difference is people now have more of a, not everyone, but there are people who use it to weaponise it against other people. I think there are people who are more willing to defend empire and institutions than they are willing to love the people that Christ came for.

And it's very easy to marginalise other people when they're different and to then oppress them using those same beliefs that totally go against what you're doing. And so that for me is where I'm watching so much, especially here in the US, where people are using that. And it is a way to oppress and control.

and not really do it. And I'm often saying to people, if you really read this book and understand what it says, you would treat people very differently. But they cherry-pick what they want to, then use it to harm other people. And that's not what it's for.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:51)

Protecting institutions. That happens in so many forms.

Dr Froswa' Booker (26:55)

That's what.

Yes, and it is to protect the ability to have power, and it is to protect the ability to control others. And that's very problematic. It's very problematic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:11)

That's.

Dr Froswa' Booker (27:12)

Yeah, it's very problematic because what it says to me is that God needs us to do his work when God, in my opinion, is God and is so vast and so big that God can take care of God. God uses us. It's a

privileged to be the hands and feet of God and to serve others. But how dare I think that I am the only person that has the interpretation of who God is. I'm not. And the idea that other people believe that I am the one that has this message and I'm the only one, wow. And not to believe that God uses people ⁓ and not just one.

And that even in the model of Christ, Christ not just came and talked, alone he used and worked with other people and discipled other people who were very different than who he was. I think we have a template of what goodness looks like. People aren't using that template.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:11)

The opposite of control could possibly be empowerment. Let me know if you agree. remember listening to all that, it reminds me of the self-sufficiency that came from other thoughts like Gandhi and looking at supporting communities and even people within organisations, anyone looking at

Leading by supporting, is this tying in with the thought that if people are really going to achieve something, then it's not about one person controlling everybody, it's about enabling everybody else to do what they need to do.

Dr. Froswa' Booker (29:01)

Yeah, it's, when I control, I limit. And I don't think people understand that. I remember very early in my career, I used to send out these emails that would help people. And the way the emails were worded, they would have to come back to me to get the information. And in the beginning, that felt good. It was like, yeah, people are coming to me, huh?

And then it became exhausting because at that point I became the person that everybody was like, well, let me go to her, let me go to her. And I wasn't empowering them.

to be able to realise you can go and call that person. You don't need me to do that for you. And so sometimes people do that because they want dependence and reliance. But what you fail to realise in doing that is that your capacity is then limited because everybody's dependent on you. What does it look like when you go? I'm going to help you do this and teach you how to do it. And people think that they lose power and control in doing that. And the reality is you don't. You actually gain more.

because then people look at you and go, I was able to get that from this person. I wasn't hoarding the information anymore. I was going here, call them, you do whatever you need to do. Good luck, don't call me. And it didn't diminish what I was doing. It actually grew it because people started seeing me as a resource and that I was willing to be fluid and give them the information without me hoarding it and feeling like, no, I have to be the gatekeeper.

I don't think people realise that when you give, your hands are open. And so what you don't understand is now you're able to receive because your hands can actually get it. But when your hands are closed, and my grandmother used to say this all the time, when your hands are closed, and your tight fist, and you're holding everything like this, you're keeping it in, but nothing else can get in either.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:54)

That is wisdom. I want to pivot to another big question. I'm going to trust you would have met some people who accumulate or find suddenly extreme resources and they are wondering, okay, I don't need all of this. Where should I send some of it so someone else can benefit from it? What do you normally say to people who are in that position?

Dr Froswa' Booker (31:23)

I want to find out what their passion is. I think it's important to put your money in spaces that you have some connection to. I was talking to a friend before I got on a call with you, and she's getting ready to ask for funding for a project. And one of the things that I was saying to her is, what is the invitation that you feel you're being pulled to?

And I think that's a thing for people with wealth, is what is the invitation that you feel that you want to be able to impact? So I start with passion. I want to know what drives you. I want to know what keeps you up at night. What are the problems that you really want to solve for? And then what does success look like for you in a community? What is it that you would be happy with? And if they say it's education, I want to see kids graduate because that's what happened to me was I was able to go to school because then mine is then that's what we focus on, because otherwise you're not going to have a sense of fulfilment or investment if you're just writing a check.

But if we're able to help you do something that's meaningful and impactful, and help you identify an organisation that meets that need, and build the relationship. Because to me, funding shouldn't be just writing a check. That happens. There's nothing wrong with that. But at some point, there needs to be intimacy. You need to know this organisation. It should be more than just giving your money. It should be you giving your relationships, giving your time, that you're volunteering, that you are so invested, that you bring your community around that. That's when training transformation

happens. But if I'm just writing a check and I go back to bed and I don't know what you're doing with it, I don't know the staff, I don't know the people that you're serving, then I don't really get to be a part of the impact. I just get to write something and then wash my hands of it and act as if I have no responsibility. I want you to feel some responsibility and use your check, your time, your talent.

All of those things, your testimony to make an impact. That's important. And I want people to understand, too, that you might not be a wealthy person with all this money. You still have something to give. And philanthropy doesn't always mean writing a check. Philanthropy really means the love of mankind. So how do you express that love? That's using your time to go volunteer. That's using your wisdom and your skills to go and do skill-based volunteering. That may be that you bring relationships along who can help. There are ways that you can still support the community without having to write a check.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:05)

Anyone can give and support in some way.

Dr Froswa' Booker (34:09)

Yes, always. We all have something to offer.

Even if it's just you telling your own personal story and saying to a person who's going through a hard time, I identify, I've been through that. Let me tell you how I got through it. So even your testimony is powerful in helping people. And I think we get so caught up with the money and recognising that there are so many other forms of currency that can make a difference. And your relationships are part of that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:39)

Relationships with people that is such an impact on everything, the relationships. And I trust that there's a balance that's needed because you are seeing that when people connect with the groups around them, the locals, then that is very connected. Have you seen people connecting internationally and networking beyond their own backyards as well?

Dr Froswa Booker (35:08)

Absolutely. I went to India several years ago. It was one of the most powerful experiences I had. And there is a family that's in India that I still keep in contact with. And they will ask for things. They would come over to the States periodically. They haven't been in a while. But it was such a gift to me to be there with them and then to continue the relationship and talk about ways that we can support the work that they're doing there. Yes, you know, the internet is, as much as it has its problems, it's also a gift because you get an opportunity to connect to people like I'm doing with you, that you get to connect to people that are all over the world. What an opportunity to be able to learn from each other and to share stories and experiences. So I encourage people that being a neighbour doesn't always mean just in your backyard.

Your neighbourhood is this globe.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:09)

Almost everything you have said is a quote. They used to call it tweetables, things like that. I just wanted to go and share all of these little quotes, but it's all so true. And connecting, this is counter-cultural these days. I have to acknowledge this because we know we live in individualistic societies, and people are just thinking about themselves, partly out of perhaps a survival instinct, perhaps out of just habit. And some now call it scarcity mindset. How do you encourage people who are maybe stretched thin, be it with more things than their money, and they need to see that they can gain more in life if they bring service into their day.

Dr Froswa' Booker (37:05)

We were just talking about this earlier that your generosity is also connected to what your life looks like, too. And I don't think people see the correlation that when you are generous, even with the little that you have, it opens up doors and possibilities for you to get more. It's just, there is something about reciprocity. So if I have scarcity and I see the world that way, I'm going to experience more of that. And if I begin to see, even though I might be limited today in my bank account, but I begin to have this mindset of abundance, and I begin to see relationships as good

Because when you have a scarcity mindset, it's not just money. You don't trust people. You look at everything as problematic. So it shows up. I think we only see it as money. It shows up in everything. And you tend to be around other people who are scarce in what they have and how they see the world. So then you're rehashing the same kind of information. I'm not telling you ways to get abundance because I have a scarcity mindset. I don't want you to have more than I do. So it shows up in everything that you do. It's helping people move to this idea that there's enough out here for people not to be greedy and try to dominate the world. That's a whole other conversation. But for those of us who just want to live and be comfortable, it can exist, and it can happen. So when I am willing to make sure that you're good, I'm going to be good in doing that. And I think sometimes people are pushed to be so insular. And that too is, in my opinion, a control issue. Because the more I make you think they're taking your jobs, they're harming you, we got to watch out for these people, the more that you begin to start holding on to everything and you won't change, you will get so afraid and you live in this fear-based way of thinking that nothing can come in for you, then it's easy to control you when I get you to that place. It's helping people understand that when we begin to start seeing people as neighbours, that we're all a part of this creation story, and that there is purpose, and that when you fulfil your purpose, that opens up the opportunity for me to walk in mine. But if I'm not fulfilling mine and you're not fulfilling yours, what's going to happen? Nothing. We're all going to suffer. It's moving from that way of thinking to recognising that we've been given this opportunity.

to be here on this planet together. Either we're going to die and kill it, which is what looks like we're doing, or we're going to value what we have and value each other and see that the challenges we face are not the kinds of challenges that can't be solved. Every challenge we have, there's a person who is a solution or a group of people. And when we begin to start seeing that, our worlds will look so different. I tell all my nonprofits, you don't have a money problem.

I say you have a relationship problem. You get the right relationships, things will change. And so what I would say to people who are dealing with scarcity, start changing your mindset about your relationships, about what you speak. If you speak that there is horrible things and it's always bad, you're going to see more of that.

But when you look for the good and look for the signs and wonders and miracles that are around you, watch what will begin to happen. And with the little that you have, it will grow because you're growing, and you'll bring in relationships and resources that will grow what you have. That's what I hope people will start to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:46)

Look for the opportunities that are around us.

Dr. Froswa' Booker (40:48)

Yes,

and they exist. You never know. My mother says this all the time. You never know when you're entertaining angels. And sometimes we are so busy just doing our work that we miss the opportunity to even smile and say hello to someone. And that person could be the solution of what you're going through. But because we're so focused inward, we miss so much.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:11)

Reach out. Part of that. Be nice. Be nice. Be nice. That's very simple. Simply be nice. Anyone can do that.

Dr Froswa' Booker (41:14)

Be nice. Just be nice.

Be nice.

It's easy. Say hello to people. Ask people how they're doing and mean it. I mean, it's the little bitty things that we can do to make this place better, and our lives will get better when we are invested in other people as well as ourselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:41)

The saying hello and having a conversation that, in my head, guides me to look up from this screen and interact with the people around us. Have you seen that as a part of it?

Dr Froswa Booker (41:52)

Yes. absolutely. It's interesting to me because I'll have people come up to me who say, you're my Facebook friend. And I'm thinking to myself, my, I don't know them, but they know me. And it's made me more aware of, and not that I've got 600,000 Facebook friends, I'm not that person, but it's made me more aware that ⁓ we're being watched sometimes when we're not even paying attention.

And I'm more keenly aware of how I show up in spaces that I want to be a person that if I say that I'm a person who loves, then I have to have a life that looks like that too. And it's just as simple as, you know, when you see people like that person who did me and said, you're my Facebook friend, I could have easily gone, I don't know you. Wow, what kind of impression that would have left with her versus me going, my goodness, it's so great to meet you. Tell me about you and what you're doing. And I built a relationship out of that, and I gained a friend out of that, and someone that I was able to go deeper with and do things with. You miss out sometimes in our busyness. We miss out on so many opportunities that could change our lives, that maybe the person that you're meeting at Starbucks or whatever place you go to could actually be a destiny helper. But if you're too busy, you miss out on an opportunity for someone who could change your life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:17)

Absolutely. Have the courage and confidence to say hello to anyone and connect with people. I can relate to that feeling of realising, okay, someone has seen me online. My equivalent was a few months ago, someone messaged me on Instagram and said that he had seen me at the public pool, but he wasn't sure, he thought it was probably me and then saw me on Instagram, and I don't have a lot of people on Instagram right now. And I thought, I don't know this person, and I'm inspired by what you are saying to just go with it, and okay, if people are reaching out, then it takes a lot of openness, and it goes in any direction. I've reached out to some people online, and the magic and the encouragement that comes from just a simple chat, yes, online, but also in person, showing up, meeting up with people, just seeing everybody.

Dr. Froswa' Booker (44:17)

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, and it's a term called social capital, which is what my research is based on.

I don't think we realise the power of our relationships. It is a form of currency. You know, you have no idea of the networks that people are connected to. And if you don't talk to them, you'll never know that. And so there is power and just saying hello, because that person could transform your life or be your best friend or your partner. I mean, it could be anything, the gamut of things. But when we're too busy or afraid, we lose out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:01)

Absolutely. It's courage. I'm going to guess the solution is to just go and do it. If someone is really feeling shy, let's address the shyness. If someone out there is feeling very shy, what are your words of encouragement? Just go out and make it happen.

Dr Froswa' Booker (45:04)

Yes.

Yes!

Start

with the email. I remember during the pandemic, I met so many people from other countries just through LinkedIn. And we would do these virtual coffees. It was the coolest thing. And it would be 15, 20 minutes, but I would have these powerful conversations. And in that 15 to 20 minutes, I could determine if there was synergy. Now, know that everybody you meet, you're not going to have a relationship with. Some of them are not a part of your path, and that's OK, but they could be connected to someone who is. And so start small, do an email, do a note on LinkedIn and go, hey, I'd love to get to know you. I just want to find out more about you and do a 15- 20 minute call, just get to know you. And if they're vibing with you, then you go, okay, maybe I want to set up more time to get to know you. Are you going that? Yeah, they're not it and be okay with that. And that's fine, because again, everybody that you meet might not be your person. But through that process, you could meet some people that can help you with so many different things. So I encourage, start small with something like that and just send a note and go, hey.

Just want to get to know you, learn more about how did you end up in this career path? I want to understand your journey. And what I've learned is people love to talk about themselves. So give them the space to do that. And then as you're listening, don't listen to figure out ways of what you're going to say. Listen to find out opportunities for connection. That's what you're listening for.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:45)

It's the common ground.

Dr Froswa' Booker (46:47)

Yes! Yes, that's it!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:50)

It really is. That's a great idea. The short little chunk of time that is significant in this day and age. It doesn't have to be a lot of time. And the start with an email idea, that's awesome. Pop a note over to anyone, and it doesn't have to... Even being brief can be more valuable, especially in these busy times.

So it can be one sentence, right?

Dr Froswa' Booker (47:18)

Yes.

Yeah, I just want to know you, you know, and especially for people that you know are busy. Tell me more about your journey. I'd love to understand more about your journey. I'm interested in this kind of work, or I'm interested in being an author, and I just want to understand more. And people typically are willing to do that. And if they say I can't meet, you can even ask, well, can we correspond through email? And I send you questions and respond. I've had people do that, too, because we couldn't work our schedules out.

Folks are willing to help more often than not. And when you meet those who don't want to help, don't allow that closed door to stop you from pursuing those who do. Because that person just let you know very early, they're not your person. And that's OK. You don't want to spend a lot of time and investment with someone who later on is going to prove to be someone that's not of character. So if they're being mean up front, you go, thank you.

Because that's intel that I now take and go, I know what to do with that. I'm going to leave you alone. But don't allow people who are busy or rude to stop you from building a network of people who could really support your dreams and aspirations.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:27)

The right people will be your people, and it doesn't have to be everybody.

Dr Froswa' Booker (48:32)

No, it won't be.

And be okay with that because there are gonna be people who are not kind. We live in a world with a lot of people that are not kind right now. But I think we focus so much on those who are the negative ones that we don't realise there are so many good, kind, wonderful human beings that are walking the earth every single day that we could build relationships with and do good things together. So what I wanna encourage people to do is take those small steps to building your tribe of people who are good people.

I'm so blessed because I have an amazing group of friends. And very early, it was easy for me to be negative because I'd had so many experiences that were not very good. And so because of that, it was easy to go, I'm going to close off because people are mean. And when I changed my view of myself and changed my view of other people,

I got blessed with this amazing tribe of women and men who are just phenomenal, young and older, who are just so good to me. And it took time to get to that place. But I want folks to know, don't allow the traumas and the triggers of your past block you from having the people that you want and desire in your life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:47)

Don't let past experiences prevent us from greater opportunities in the future.

Dr Froswa' Booker (49:53)

Yes,

Yes, there are lessons. And I think what we have to be aware of is that one, I don't believe anything that happens in life is wasted. There are horrible things that happen to people, but I've seen people who've had some horrible experiences turn those things into good. So even though we've had very painful experiences, I shared one early on in our conversation, I couldn't allow that to stop me from building relationships and advancing my life. I could have easily allowed that to just be a roadblock, and I got stuck; you can't. And so you're going to have those experiences. For me, it was learning the lesson of, and I often see people as reflections. So when I meet good people, it's, oh, that's a reflection of me. When I meet people are not so good, they're a reflection as well of what I could become. And so always looking at people and seeing that there's something to learn in every interaction and experience that you have. And for the negative ones that I've had, it's not that I allow myself to be a doormat and continue to stay in those relationships. If they're not good, you shouldn't be in those. You deserve people who treat you well and with dignity and kindness. But even in those interactions, those things have helped me to be the person that I wanted to be and not be like them.

I tell a story about when I was very young in my career, there was a lady here. She's no longer alive. She was very well known. And I met her at an event. And I was sitting at the registration table. And I said her name wrong. And she embarrassed me in front of everyone. It just went off on me because I said her name incorrectly. And I apologise. But I was so hurt that this well-regarded leader would treat me that way.

The lesson that I took away from that was that I could be that way when I get older. I could become that mean person where there's this young woman here who's admiring me, and I could do something that could harm her by the way I talk to her. And it made me realise then and there, I didn't want to be that kind of woman. And I've fought to make sure that I'm not that kind of person to anyone. And so I could have easily looked at that situation and said, well, all of those people are like that. I'm not going to talk to women who are in those kinds of positions because she is, you know, probably just like the rest of them. And it made me realise, no, she was just crazy. That doesn't mean that everyone who is in a similar position was like that. She was just a mean lady. It gave me an opportunity to see the reflection of what possibility could be. And I just made the decision not to be that kind of woman. And so don't let those bad experiences stop you because they happen.

They don't have to define you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:47)

It doesn't define you. That is a massive encouragement. It means so much because we can be on either side of it. And what I'm learning from you is that sometimes we need to remember not to take for granted the positions we are in.

Dr Froswa' Booker (53:08)

Yes, yes.

It's a gift when you're given any position, whether it's one that you're running the company or even if you're the person that's cleaning the building every night, there's value in everything that we do and in every person. And if you're given the opportunity to be in leadership and to manage and direct people's lives, you're shepherding people, you're stewarding them, and you have an impact on who they become. Think about it. If you go back in your career and look at all of the leaders and teachers you have had.

You don't really remember the mediocre ones. You don't. You're like, she was okay, teacher. You remember the ones who were really good or the ones who were really bad. And those people shape you. And so you definitely don't want to fall in the mediocre category, where people don't even remember your name. They're like, she taught me. I don't even remember her. You did nothing. You just showed up. You don't want to be that person. But you definitely don't want to be the memory that they have that's a trigger or the trauma that they now have to get therapy for because you were so mean to them. I would like to be remembered for being the person that made a difference in people's lives.

And think about this, when you go to a funeral, I've never been to a funeral where they talk about people's jobs and how much money they had. They talk about relationships and how people made them feel. So what we do every day is we're building legacy. And that's going to be so important to recognise that every single day, the decisions that you make are leading up to the legacy that you're going to leave behind. Just make good decisions and leave a legacy of love.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:50)

Legacy of love. Do you find that self-care and finding time for a contemplation is a step in leadership that can support people?

Dr Froswa' Booker (55:04)

It's required if you're going to be a good leader. I don't think a lot of leaders spend time reflecting.

And I call it bookends, where you start your day with a meditation or set an intention. But you have to shape your day and guide what you want your day to look like. And that looks different for a lot of people, but having that practice is important. And then I think you need another bookend to close your day of processing and reflecting over your day, looking at what went well, what didn't go so well. Because then, you can make course corrections. Typically, most leaders only make course corrections when something is bad. But if you create the space in your life for these feedback loops from yourself and other people, you can course-correct a lot quicker. So I think it's important that if you're going to lead well, you've got to lead yourself well.